On feeling stupid.

[_Some Schmo]

The exception is when you realized, and accepted, that your beliefs were wrong. That truly is exceptional.

So don't feel stupid. Feel smart. You did what billions of others can't.

Until I read what Seth said here, I was going to post something right along these lines.

Don't beat yourself up for waking up after sleeping in. At least you woke up.

[_MishMagnet]

I will once again pull out my over-used analogy.

Let's say I'm happily married. I love my husband, I meant my vows, I have always been a faithful and good wife. Lets say one night I was cleaning up and came accross a receipt. Just one receipt lying around. It's for flowers let's say. I think it's odd, I am a little worried. I start looking around and find he's been having an affair. He has credit cards I don't know about. This has been going on forever.

Of course I'm going to feel stupid. It's easy in retrospect to see the signs that were overlooked, the doubts that I pushed down. Suddenly my whole life seems like a lie. Last week everything was fine and this week I find out it's just been an illusion.

Then let's say when you need the most support you get none of that from your friends and family. You get 'I knew that. I didn't want to tell you.' 'You are just looking for a reason to get out of the marriage.' 'Didn't you mean your vows?' 'Weren't your feelings real?'

But really it's not me that has done anything wrong. It was my husband. If he says he didn't ever deny having an affair that doesn't make it better. If he says those receipts were always in the desk that doesn't make it better. The fact is that I never knew anything was wrong so why should I have spent time looking. HE changed the game plan. Not me. Lies of omission are still lies. When I shed tears in Carthage Jail and given a completely abbreviated version of what happened there and how Joseph Smith came to find himself there - that was a lie. I didn't know there was more to the story so why should I have gone looking for that which I didn't know to exist.

[_mms]

I would hope the ultimate foundation of your faith would be Jesus Christ.

Indeed, LOAP, the "ultimate" foundation is yet to be determined for me, I suppose. Although most of those who have posted in this thread have made a determination re what they believe, having become quite well-versed in the matters of the LDS Church and, for some, religion in general, I have not. I suppose, to use terms used in some popular threads recently, it is my old "paradigm" that has me feeling stupid. I have made no determination re whether I can "shift" that paradigm enough credibly to allow for the new information, but I know that if I do, it will be far more resistent to any "new information" down the road than the old one was. So, for me, this is not about feeling stupid for believing in the Joseph Smith story or anything else, but feeling stupid for believing on such a surface level, a black and white view uninterested in seeking out information that suggested anything other than that provided by the Church--which presents nearly perfect prophets and miracles. It is all a bit stunning to me now, really. This is part of the reason that I get so worked up at the Church's effort to whitewash its history (I know we have debated that ad nauseum, but I maintain that the fact that plural marriage is not even mentioned on the official Joseph Smith website is plenty of evidence to support my proposition that the Church intentionally avoids difficult topics). I think if it did not do so, the need for major paradig shifts to accommodate new information would be far less.

For the record, though, of course, I in no way view you, LOAP, or anyone else who believes what you believe as "stupid" or any other pejorative. My feelings are a result of what I have been dealing with for many months and what got me here.

[_BishopRic]

Excellent O.P., and many excellent responses (I also really like Sethbag's!). I was also a bit surprised how many "smart" people on the MAD board were surprised at my church experiences growing up. I actually had a little to do with the seminary curriculum in the SL valley in the mid 70s (as the seminary president), so I think my exposure to teachings was a bit more thorough than most.

But then I had an epiphany. Humans (sorry for the psychobabble here...) are generally at the top of the evolutionary tree, but we have some core similarities with other animals. One is "fight or flight." When we perceive an attack, we either fight back, or run away from the attacker. Think about how this plays out with faith. One premise is that we ARE what we think. We are our beliefs. So when that is attacked, we either fight or flee...or both.

So think about an apologist. If there is a way to protect their religious conviction, they will go to great lengths to fight the attack. One strategy is to minimize the attacker. If I say the church has covered up important history, they will do what they need to to say they haven't. We can say until we're blue in the face that we were not taught that Joseph practiced polygamy, polyandry, etc., and they will say "prove it!" "CFR!" Of course the challenging events were minimized in the manuals (nobody wants to admit that a prophet lied to his wife, and in public about polygamy, then actually practiced it...doesn't look good for the honesty principle...).

So one way to stay emotionally safe is to deny that we actually had experiences we did. Another is to use the "lost the spirit" card...or the "possessed by the devil" one. In either case, by minimizing the validity of anything a critic says because of his/her status, there is no need to take the risk of considering the possibility of the critic's claims being true.

To me, that is "flight." Now an example of "fighting" is what Selek, Pahoran, et al do. They personally do all they can to humiliate their opponent...usually not even addressing the meat of the subject. If you can smash your opponent, you don't have to listen to them.

Of course we all do it. It is difficult to get to a point of humility to be open to different opinions. That is emotionally risky, and leaves one quite vulnerable. But I also think it is the only way to find one's true spiritual path -- and by that, I consider spirituality to be one's connection to the universe, not just one religion's concept of God. I know many atheists that are more spiritual than most Mormons I know. And I know some Mormons that are the most humble, spiritual people I know. I think we can be spiritual with or without religion.

Just my ramblings....

[_harmony]

I was talking to my wife last night about the uncomfortable conversation I had with a friend regarding my doubts.

What did your wife say?

[_Gazelam]

If your faith is in Jesus Christ, you end up like me... and we all how that's viewed by the faithful here or on MAD.

And what exactly is it you believe about Jesus Christ?

Joseph Smith provides a clear window to view Christ through. Without the revelations he received, Christ is obscured through false traditions and distortions.

[_moksha]

If your faith is in Jesus Christ, you end up like me... and we all how that's viewed by the faithful here or on MAD.

And what exactly is it you believe about Jesus Christ?

Joseph Smith provides a clear window to view Christ through. Without the revelations he received, Christ is obscured through false traditions and distortions.

Gaz, could you elaborate on this idea?

[_ludwigm]

I am a true nonbeliever.

[_Runtu]

If your faith is in Jesus Christ, you end up like me... and we all how that's viewed by the faithful here or on MAD.

And what exactly is it you believe about Jesus Christ?

Joseph Smith provides a clear window to view Christ through. Without the revelations he received, Christ is obscured through false traditions and distortions.

Just because something is clear, it doesn't mean it's true. If Joseph wasn't a prophet (and he wasn't), the window he gave is the distorted one.

[_Ten Bear]

.........

Then, when talking toa good friend and coming away with the feeling that I was now viewed by that friend in a signficiantly different light than I had been before expressing some doubts (in a very innocuous manner, I might add), I felt that "am I stupid" feeling again--like I was stupid for thinking that people can have relationships that go beyond their common beliefs and that if the beliefs were to vanish, the relationship could remain fully intact. I know that this is possible, but I felt naïve and stupid all over again. It made me look around and think about who might be "my friend" and who might be "my friend as long as I have a testimony". This process made me feel sick inside.

.......

Damn.

Just a perspective from a NOM. Do you have a "loving spouse" or a "loving spouse as long as you have a testimony". Now multiply that sick feeling by ten.

Double Damn.