Huckebee the baptist minister

[_A Light in the Darkness]

HA!!! See my point. 16 views and not one comment yet we now have another new thread on Mitt and Mormonism started by Rollo! It iseems ok these days to whip a Mormon and to make lots of noise about a Mormon politician. But if we did this to Huckabee I am sure there would be an uproar. Like it or not, Mitt is the target of religious bigotry.

This is a message board about the Mormon faith. Of course people are going to be more apt to discuss Mormons in contemporary society. People are here because they hate Mormons more than they hate Baptists. Some of them might even be Baptists.

[_Dr. Shades]

That is right. Thus my point about Mormonism is fair game for religious bigotry.

Don't get me wrong: I think there is a not-so-fine-line between "religious bigotry" and "significant concerns."

Using a person's religion as an excuse to dismiss and/or ridicule him or her counts as religious bigotry. It is unfortunate that Mormons are subject to this, but what can I say, the cold reality is that many people remain comfortable being bigoted toward those minorities whom they deem to be unable to effectively fight back. Is it wrong? Yes. But it is reality? Yes.

On the other hand, wishing to get the facts about a little-understood minority, religious or otherwise, is NOT bigotry, since the person's intent is to understand, not dismiss or ridicule.

So comments such as we see in the opening post of Rollo's thread are morally bankrupt, methinks. HOWEVER, if someone knows about a Mormon's temple vows to consecrate everything to "the Kingdom of God," which of course equals the LDS church for all intents and purposes, it is NOT bigotry to inquire into the likelihood of a Mormon president using his power to advance the LDS agenda at the expense of the American people at large.

Plus, the baptists don't (to my knowledge) have an overarching figurehead whose dictates they are expected to obey. Mormons, on the other hand, are constantly taught and exhorted to "follow the prophet, follow the prophet, follow the prophet," so I think a Mormon potential president will naturally garner more questions vis-a-vis his religious devotion.

So, mere concerns about and inquiries into Romney's Mormonism do not necessarily or always equal "bigotry."

[_guy sajer]

Mike Huckabee seems to be catching up to Romney in the Iowa polls. Huckebee is a baptist minister. Will his religious beliefs be as scrutinized as Romeny's. Should they be? Or will he get a pass?

I doubt his religious beliefs will be as scrutinized as Romney's, since everyone is used to the Baptists. But yes, I believe they should be. I also believe he will get a pass, unfortunately.

That is right. Thus my point about Mormonism is fair game for religious bigotry.

You toss around the term "religious bigotry" too freely. A person's religious beliefs shape their world view, for better or worse, and thus are legitimate issues of concern.

I have no problem voting for ANY religious person, as long as that person is rational, reasonable, non-dogmatic, liberal, etc.

IF, however, they demonstrate a tendency to let their religious beliefs excessively cloud the way they see issues; if they rely too heavily on God rather than reasonable considerations of the public good (or something like that) to make decisions; if they are inclined due to religious beliefs to withold civil rights or liberties from groups of people; if they inject religion into the public square in inappropriate ways; if they are captive to dogmatic religious interestes; etc. then YES, I do consider this relevant.

In other words, it's not the religion, per se, but the beliefs that attend it. Although I can say that there's no way in hell I'd ever vote for someone affiliated with a truly whacked out cult, like Heaven's Gate or the FLDS, regardless of their apparent rationality. The fact that they've chose to affiliate with such damn strange organizations is a very significant signal that the person is irrational/unreasonable.

As for ALiTD's comment, I hate neither Mormons or Baptists. I am on record stating that, given a choice, I'd much rather hang out with TBM Mormons than evangelicals/fundies any day of the week. The most obnoxious Mormon is nothing compared to an obnoxious evangelical/fundie.

[_Mercury]

Mike Huckabee seems to be catching up to Romney in the Iowa polls. Huckebee is a baptist minister. Will his religious beliefs be as scrutinized as Romeny's. Should they be? Or will he get a pass?

He is Mainstream, Romney is not. Its as simple as that. What if a Quaker ran for President? Oh yah...that happened.

[_Sethbag]

HA!!! See my point. 16 views and not one comment yet we now have another new thread on Mitt and Mormonism started by Rollo! It iseems ok these days to whip a Mormon and to make lots of noise about a Mormon politician. But if we did this to Huckabee I am sure there would be an uproar. Like it or not, Mitt is the target of religious bigotry.

I'm afraid Jason that I don't agree here, and it looks like in this case you were trolling for a reason to play the bigotry card.

The fact is that the Religious Right is what's at stake here. Romney is pandering to it as an outsider. Huckebee is part of it. Nobody on the Religious Right is going to be suspicious about the views of a Baptist minister the way they are going to be about a Mormon. This isn't rocket science. Huckebee has home field advantage where faith is concerned, so of course you haven't heard much from the right about his views.

I, on the other hand, would be very suspicious of Huckebee because of his religious views. Probably even more so than I would be of Mitt. If Huckebee is a Biblical literalist, for example, or a young-earth creationist, anti-evolutionist, etc. that would concern me greatly. And I wouldn't consider that bigotry, either. A biblical literalist and young-earth creationist would clearly have surrendered his mind to a delusional worldview, and that it would worry me greatly to have someone with such a cloudy vision of reality with his finger on the nuclear button. Especially if that person believed that Armageddon had to happen before Jesus can come back, so he'd actually have some incentive.

[_Sethbag]

One addition to this. Guy Sajer's comments actually represented my own views pretty well on this, but I thought I'd be a little more explicit about this next thing.

If we were to zoom back to, say, 1965 or so, and have a Mormon run for President I could not possibly vote for him because of the black issue. Recall that at that time we still had apostles like Mark E. Petersen teaching openly that blacks had been less valiant in the pre-existence and were cursed by God with their skin color, and that they were reaping on Earth the just desserts of their behavior in the pre-existence and so forth. Recall he also taught that a black person could get into the Celestial Kingdom, but they would be a servant there.

With these kinds of teachings I could never have voted for a Mormon for President, because the President of the United States needs to be able to view all people as equal in value, equal in rights, equal in inherent worth as a human being, equal in potential, etc. I could never vote for President a guy or a woman whose religious views convinced them that 11% of the US population was inherently of lesser worth, lesser potential, lesser rights, etc.

Now all of that black people doctrine gets the "I don't know that we ever taught that" treatment from the apologists, and I'm confident that Romney himself doesn't actually believe that stuff, so it's not a problem for me to vote for him on that issue. But I still don't like the way he's radically changed his tune on some issues in order to pander to a group of people who'd like nothing better than to create a new American theocracy.

[_Trevor]

One addition to this. Guy Sajer's comments actually represented my own views pretty well on this, but I thought I'd be a little more explicit about this next thing.

If we were to zoom back to, say, 1965 or so, and have a Mormon run for President I could not possibly vote for him because of the black issue. Recall that at that time we still had apostles like Mark E. Petersen teaching openly that blacks had been less valiant in the pre-existence and were cursed by God with their skin color, and that they were reaping on Earth the just desserts of their behavior in the pre-existence and so forth. Recall he also taught that a black person could get into the Celestial Kingdom, but they would be a servant there.

What about women and the priesthood? Can you vote for someone who believes that women should be second class citizens in a spiritual community?

If not, then you are ready to exclude just about anyone who belongs to a religious group that does not open its leadership to women. That's a lot of people.

[_beastie]

It looks like Huckabee is benefiting from the EV nervousness about Mormons in Iowa.

I would be shocked if Mitt ever got the nomination. I live in the Bible Belt, I know how prejudiced many - if not most - EVs are against Mormons. But it does appear that the religious right's power may be diluted in this nomination cycle.

in my opinion, I don't think LDS leaders should desire a Romney candidacy. The scrutiny on Mormonism if he gets elected will be intense, much more than on JFK. And one truth that may come out is that while catholics like JFK "say" the pope is infallible, they "act" as if he's fallible. While Mormons "say" the prophet is fallible, they "act" as if he's infallible.

[_Jason Bourne]

HA!!! See my point. 16 views and not one comment yet we now have another new thread on Mitt and Mormonism started by Rollo! It iseems ok these days to whip a Mormon and to make lots of noise about a Mormon politician. But if we did this to Huckabee I am sure there would be an uproar. Like it or not, Mitt is the target of religious bigotry.

This is a message board about the Mormon faith. Of course people are going to be more apt to discuss Mormons in contemporary society. People are here because they hate Mormons more than they hate Baptists. Some of them might even be Baptists.

Your point would be valid if my comments were just about this board. But they were not. They were about what is happening in the press in relation to this presidential race.

[_Jason Bourne]

Plus, the baptists don't (to my knowledge) have an overarching figurehead whose dictates they are expected to obey. Mormons, on the other hand, are constantly taught and exhorted to "follow the prophet, follow the prophet, follow the prophet," so I think a Mormon potential president will naturally garner more questions vis-a-vis his religious devotion.

Yes they do. Jesus and the inerrant Bible.

So, mere concerns about and inquiries into Romney's Mormonism do not necessarily or always equal "bigotry.

I did not say this. But, to attack Romney and leave another religious candidate, a minister at that, gets a free pass is bigotry.