John Larsen wrote:LifeOnaPlate: (Assuming you are the same one)
If I had insulted your intelligence like you did mine, I would have been banned in a heartbeat. Not so much a warning for you.
Re: "It is not surprising how little you know about the course of events surrounding the martyrdom."
John
So click on the warning and report me to the Mods. And it isn't surprising; most active LDS don't even know all the course of events surrounding it.
One moment in annihilation's waste, one moment, of the well of life to taste- The stars are setting and the caravan starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste! -Omar Khayaam
the road to hana wrote:If Joseph Smith is considered to be a religious martyr, why is he not included in the Wikipedia entry for either "martyr" or "Christian martyrs"?
Perhaps because no one has added him? Or perhaps he was there and someone deleted him. In fact, I believe I will delete Simon the Zealot from the Wikipedia entry; after all, if one is not in the entry, one cannot be a martyr.
by the way,
If you go into the hystory of the entry you will find there was a time when he was indeed part of it. Was he a martyr then? Did he stop being one when someone deleted him?
"Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." ~Charles Bukowski
John Larsen wrote:LifeOnaPlate: (Assuming you are the same one)
If I had insulted your intelligence like you did mine, I would have been banned in a heartbeat. Not so much a warning for you.
Re: "It is not surprising how little you know about the course of events surrounding the martyrdom."
John
So click on the warning and report me to the Mods. And it isn't surprising; most active LDS don't even know all the course of events surrounding it.
Yes, but I do. :) You can test me if you want.
The only thing that reporting would do is get someone potentially booted. How would that help further the discussion. I think the over willingness to throw everyone off that board demonstrates partially the weakness of their positions.
John Larsen wrote:LifeOnaPlate: (Assuming you are the same one)
If I had insulted your intelligence like you did mine, I would have been banned in a heartbeat. Not so much a warning for you.
Re: "It is not surprising how little you know about the course of events surrounding the martyrdom."
John
So click on the warning and report me to the Mods. And it isn't surprising; most active LDS don't even know all the course of events surrounding it.
Yes, but I do. :) You can test me if you want.
The only thing that reporting would do is get someone potentially booted. How would that help further the discussion. I think the over willingness to throw everyone off that board demonstrates partially the weakness of their positions.
John
I didn't report you, and had no problem discussing it in the thread with you. Why was Joseph Smith in Carthage Jail on June 27, and was it a legal interment? Was there anything "fishy" about him being there that day?
One moment in annihilation's waste, one moment, of the well of life to taste- The stars are setting and the caravan starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste! -Omar Khayaam
I think it is key that Joseph had only the initial arrest and no official charges had been filed as yet. As far as the official government action goes, Nauvoo was really hot at the time. There were all sorts of rumors coming out of Nauvoo and it looked like it was about to explode.
Joseph clearly ordered the destruction of the press, which entailed burglary and vandalism at the very least. Had enough time gone by, he would have been charged for these crimes. As far as the law goes, Joseph was legally arrested under probable cause and he was legally jailed.
However, things went bad at that point. Like I said over there, I think Joseph was justified in his action of self defense. However, four actions take away from him being classified as a martyr: 1. He had been evading arrest for some time. 2. He tried to escape the night before. 3. He tried to get the Nauvoo legion to come bust him out. 4. He fired his gun into the crowd.
Since the initial proceedings against him were legal and not religiously based and the above reasons, I hold that he can't claim the traditional title of martyr except in the loser sense of martyr for a cause. But that is not what Mormons mean when the call him a martyr, they mean the "lamb to the slaughter" variety and he definitely wasn't that.
John Larsen wrote:I think it is key that Joseph had only the initial arrest and no official charges had been filed as yet. As far as the official government action goes, Nauvoo was really hot at the time. There were all sorts of rumors coming out of Nauvoo and it looked like it was about to explode.
Joseph clearly ordered the destruction of the press, which entailed burglary and vandalism at the very least. Had enough time gone by, he would have been charged for these crimes. As far as the law goes, Joseph was legally arrested under probable cause and he was legally jailed.
However, things went bad at that point. Like I said over there, I think Joseph was justified in his action of self defense. However, four actions take away from him being classified as a martyr: 1. He had been evading arrest for some time. 2. He tried to escape the night before. 3. He tried to get the Nauvoo legion to come bust him out. 4. He fired his gun into the crowd.
Since the initial proceedings against him were legal and not religiously based and the above reasons, I hold that he can't claim the traditional title of martyr except in the loser sense of martyr for a cause. But that is not what Mormons mean when the call him a martyr, they mean the "lamb to the slaughter" variety and he definitely wasn't that.
John
Actually, you may re-examine the "pre-trial hearing" and the internment in Carthage, the fact that Joseph was "bound over," why, and how.
One moment in annihilation's waste, one moment, of the well of life to taste- The stars are setting and the caravan starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste! -Omar Khayaam
John Larsen wrote:I think it is key that Joseph had only the initial arrest and no official charges had been filed as yet. As far as the official government action goes, Nauvoo was really hot at the time. There were all sorts of rumors coming out of Nauvoo and it looked like it was about to explode.
Joseph clearly ordered the destruction of the press, which entailed burglary and vandalism at the very least. Had enough time gone by, he would have been charged for these crimes. As far as the law goes, Joseph was legally arrested under probable cause and he was legally jailed.
However, things went bad at that point. Like I said over there, I think Joseph was justified in his action of self defense. However, four actions take away from him being classified as a martyr: 1. He had been evading arrest for some time. 2. He tried to escape the night before. 3. He tried to get the Nauvoo legion to come bust him out. 4. He fired his gun into the crowd.
Since the initial proceedings against him were legal and not religiously based and the above reasons, I hold that he can't claim the traditional title of martyr except in the loser sense of martyr for a cause. But that is not what Mormons mean when the call him a martyr, they mean the "lamb to the slaughter" variety and he definitely wasn't that.
John
Could Jesus Christ be considered a martyr?
One moment in annihilation's waste, one moment, of the well of life to taste- The stars are setting and the caravan starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste! -Omar Khayaam
the road to hana wrote:If Joseph Smith is considered to be a religious martyr, why is he not included in the Wikipedia entry for either "martyr" or "Christian martyrs"?
Perhaps because no one has added him? Or perhaps he was there and someone deleted him. In fact, I believe I will delete Simon the Zealot from the Wikipedia entry; after all, if one is not in the entry, one cannot be a martyr.
by the way, If you go into the hystory of the entry you will find there was a time when he was indeed part of it. Was he a martyr then? Did he stop being one when someone deleted him?
My read of the discussion section of that entry is that it was proposed to add him, but discussed, and never done, for reasons enumerated in the discussion.
The road is beautiful, treacherous, and full of twists and turns.
LifeOnaPlate wrote:Could Jesus Christ be considered a martyr?
Not by people who also consider him to be deity. Those who believe in "Christian martyrs" would consider him to be in a completely different category, atoning sacrifice sort of thing, but not a martyr.
The road is beautiful, treacherous, and full of twists and turns.