This is what archeologists do.

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_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

Hi Jersey Girl....

In the not so distant future, charity, Book of Mormon archaeology will be the VERY LEAST of problems for the Book of Mormon and those who believe it's content as scripture.


How soon into the not so distant future are we talking?

Like, in my lifetime?

:-)

I know something is around the corner and I am patiently waiting but still.... (smile)

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_charity
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Re: This is what archeologists do.

Post by _charity »

Jersey Girl wrote:Does the above give you hope that there will be Book of Mormon discoveries in the future?

I don't see a reply to my question from charity anywhere on this thread, though I admittedly only scanned the thread to look for a reply. Was my question too stupid? Well, I'll save myself the trouble of re-stating the question and charity the trouble of forumulating an answer. Here goes...

In the not so distant future, charity, Book of Mormon archaeology will be the VERY LEAST of problems for the Book of Mormon and those who believe it's content as scripture.

Jersey Girl


Sorry, Jersey Girl, I didn't mean to ignore your question.

I think there will be Book of Mormon discoveries in the future. But I am not basing that on the article I posted.

Please, from your vast unshared knowledge, would you let us in on your VERY LEAST of the problems idea?
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Re: This is what archeologists do.

Post by _Jersey Girl »

charity wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:Does the above give you hope that there will be Book of Mormon discoveries in the future?

I don't see a reply to my question from charity anywhere on this thread, though I admittedly only scanned the thread to look for a reply. Was my question too stupid? Well, I'll save myself the trouble of re-stating the question and charity the trouble of forumulating an answer. Here goes...

In the not so distant future, charity, Book of Mormon archaeology will be the VERY LEAST of problems for the Book of Mormon and those who believe it's content as scripture.

Jersey Girl


Sorry, Jersey Girl, I didn't mean to ignore your question.

I think there will be Book of Mormon discoveries in the future. But I am not basing that on the article I posted.

Please, from your vast unshared knowledge, would you let us in on your VERY LEAST of the problems idea?


No.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

I do not spend all day on the message board. Someetimes I miss a page. So shoot me.


I don't spend all day on the message board, either, but when I get involved in a discussion on a particular thread, I take the time to read all the responses.

The fact that you don't bother is part of the problem. It often seems that things just whiz right by your head. You probably didn't read half of it. I'm guessing that may be the reason you don't really grasp LGT, either.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

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_charity
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Post by _charity »

beastie wrote:
Yes, I understand you don't truly ascribe to LGT. You think you do, but you don't. When Clark says Nephite artifacts are mislabeled "Maya", he doesn't mean that the entire Maya culture is the equivalent of the Nephite culture. He means that a small polity, here and there, were Nephite and we just don't know it because we can't recognize a "Nephite pot". They were part and parcel of the larger Maya (or other neighboring) culture, completely enmeshed within that culture - with the exception of their religion. (which makes no sense, because the entire Mesoamerican culture was based on religion)


You really don't understand what I understand, beastie. If the Nephites were "enmieshed" as you say, it would probably be something on the order of the Amish, who stay as aloof from the surrounding culture as they can. And tell me how the Nephite religious culture proves they weren't in the same general area as other cultures who were religious?

beastie wrote:But I do agree that your nonLGT interpretation is more coherent with the actual text of the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon does clearly describe the extermination of an entire civilization, not simply the cessation of a particular royal bloodline or the destruction of one polity. Unfortunately for you, your interpretation is still inconsistent with LGT.


Your estimations are your own thoughts, of course. I think the LGT interpretaiton is completely coherent with the text. You simply do not understand how people are very ethnocentric. The world is what concerns them, not the globe. You should really try to understand how people think and refer to their own concerns.

beastie wrote:by the way, how in the world do you figure the Olmecs are a good match?


Warrne's work on names.

The timing is about right, about 2000 B.C. for the earliest cultural hints. By about 500 years later the Jaredites have built large cities. Archeological findings have verified the same in the Olmec culture.

If you gave a description of the Jaredite city Lib, a Meso-American archeologist would probably think you were talking about San Lorenzo.

There are a lot more similarites between what archeologists and anthropologists identify as characteristcs of the Olmecs and whatis written in the Book of Ether.

I think this is a very potent one from the LDS wiki: "By 600 B.C. the Jaredite culture was destroyed in one last battle. Archeologists put the destruction of the Olmec people at 601 B.C." http://www.mormonwiki.com/Jaredites
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Post by _beastie »

I'm done for tonight. If I have time tomorrow I'll comment more on the striking "match" between the Olmec timeline and the Jaredites. But I do have to laugh at this one in particular:

# 2700 BC Jared and his friends and family travel to the Americas
# 2630 BC City of Moron is established
# 2430 BC Population of Moron is decimated because of wars, thirty survive


Whoever wrote this doesn't have the vaguest clue about the Olmec time frame, and neither does Charity.

And if Brant Gardner saw this, he'd grit his teeth. He's worked long and hard to convince people that the Jaredite timeline didn't begin until 1500 BC, due to the problems earlier dating presents. (I'll share more of those problems tomorrow)

But in the meantime, Charity, perhaps you'd like to explain just what it is about Lib that would make a Mesoamerican scholar think you were describing San Lorenzo. Give me something to look forward to reading during breakfast tomorrow.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

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_charity
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Post by _charity »

beastie wrote:
Yale's Michael Coe likes to talk about what he calls "the fallacy of misplaced concreteness," the tendency among Mormon theorists like Sorenson to keep the discussion trained on all sorts of extraneous subtopics (like tapirs and nuptial beds) while avoiding what is most obvious: that Joseph Smith probably meant "horse" when he wrote down the word "horse," and that all the archaeology in the world is not likely to change the fact that horses as we know them weren't around until the Spaniards arrived on American shores.


I love this. Especially this completely scientific piece of logic. "Joseph Smith probably meant "horse" when he wrote down the word "horse."

Oh, he did, did he? Coe's statement is a most unscientific piece of opinion. Beastie, how can you justify this as a scientific observation?
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Post by _beastie »

There is no indication that Joseph Smith did not mean horse when he used the word horse. If you know of some, then offer it. Coe is offering his opinion on Book of Mormon apologetics*, which isn't a "scientific matter". What is a scientific matter is that there were no horses during the Book of Mormon time period in Mesoamerica.

So, Charity, no further explanation on why the description of Lib would sound like San Lorenzo to a scholar? And which scholars believe the Olmecs were destroyed at 601 BC?

And do you ever use anything other than apologia for your "research"?

*and, by the way, the fact that he knows this much about Book of Mormon apologetics demonstrates the falsity of the apologists who claim that while Coe knows what he's talking about in regards to ancient Mesoamerica, he is not familiar enough with current Book of Mormon apologetics for his comments to be meaningful

Now, let's look more at your Olmec timeline. From Charity's mormonwiki link:



* 2700 BC Jared and his friends and family travel to the Americas
* 2630 BC City of Moron is established
* 2430 BC Population of Moron is decimated because of wars, thirty survive
* 2290 BC Built Cities
* 2160 BC Drought cuts down the population
* 1070 BC Civil war divides the kingdom
* 1010 BC Wars, famine, pestilence
* 740 BC Civil War
* ~600 BC Final Battle, Ether & Coriantumr only survivors


Sorenson actually would probably agree with this rough chronology, because he wanted to retain the tower connection.

From p 116 of Ancient Setting:

First, let us spell out the origin of the Jaredites in historical and cultural terms. When did the Jaredites originate as a people? Historical texts and archaeological research on Mesopotamia, their homeland, tell us that big pyramid-shaped temple platforms called ziggurats were being erected well before 3000 BC. Nothing but one of them qualifies as “the great tower” referred to in Ether 1:33. If the departure of the Jaredite party from their original home had been many centuries later than 3000 BC or earlier than 3300 BC, their account about “the great tower” would sound odd in terms of Near Eastern history. (Incidentally, the zero date from which the Mesoamerican calendars were calculated was 3113 BC, which might or might not be a coincidence.) We have already seen that the earliest evidences of some of the basic indicators of civilization – stable agriculture, village life, and ceramics – date to Mesaomerica to about 3000 BC.

There is no sound evidence, by the way, to support the idea from outmoded biblical commentaries that the great tower (“of Babel”) dated to near 2200 BC, as some Latter-day Saints continue to believe. Indeed, contrary data abound.



Gardner is willing to throw the tower under the bus because of his familiarity with the Olmec time period.

http://frontpage2000.nmia.com/~nahualli ... Ether1.htm

The following summary is based on information obtained from Richard Diehl's "The Olmecs: America's First Civilization". Diehl is widely regarded as the preeminent Olmec authority.

Yes, there were evidence of inhabitants in Olman prior to the Olmec period from about 5100 BC. They were farmers and foragers. Signs of "civilization" began to be noted around 3000 BC. (the following is taken from one of my zarahemla essays, which I still believe Charity hasn't bothered to read, despite complaining that critics don't deal with content)

http://zarahemlacitylimits.com/wiki/index.php/Kingship/
Holy_Lord#Evolution_of_Ideology:_The_.E2.80.9CJaredite.E2.80.9D_Period

It is true that there is evidence of “some of the basic indicators of civilization” as early as 3000 BC in the Olmec region. Richard Diehl, in his book The Olmecs - America’s First Civilization, notes:

Although humans surely inhabited Olman in Paleo-Indian times, the oldest known archaeological remains date to 5100 BC. At about that time farmers occupied the edge of a former lagoon at San Andres, Tabasco, 15 km (10 miles) south of the current shore of the Gulf of Mexico and 5 km (3 miles) northeast of La Venta…

By 2500 BC farmer at San Andres and their neighbors were living around an estuary bordered by channels of the Grijalva river delta and practicing a mixed economy of foraging and farming. In addition to domesticated maize, they cultivated the sunflower for its nutritious, oil-rich seeds, and cotton for fiber. They also utilized the abundant wild resources of the area such as plants of the squash family. Rust maintains that they used pottery vessels for cooking and storage but later investigators suggest that his sherds may be intrusions from more recent occupations higher up in the excavation. The early inhabitants of San Andres must have used canoes, weapons, digging sticks, net baskets, and ritual objects fabricated from wood and other organic materials. (pp 23-24)


This is obviously problematic for Sorenson’s early dating. Archaeologists can’t even guarantee that the Olmecs, or more precisely the pre-Olmecs, had pottery by 2500 BC, much less the advanced social stratification described in the Book of Mormon. Diehl dates the actual origins of the Olmec culture to around 1500 BC. Again, from his book The Olmecs, p. 25:

Until recently archaeologists believed that Olmec culture did not emerge as an identifiable entity until 1200 BC, but today they can trace its origins probably to at least 1600-1500 BC. During that century true Olmec remains were ritually deposited at El Manati, a sacred shrine near San Lorenzo in the lower Coatzacoalcos basin. There is good reason to believe that the worshipers came from San Lorenzo, the first large Olmec center and possibly the original hearth of Olmec culture and art. The identity of these first Olmecs remains a mystery. Some scholars believe they were Mokaya migrants from the Pacific coast of Chiapas who brought improved maize strains and incipient social stratification with them. Others propose that Olmec culture evolved among local indigenous populations without significant external stimulus. I prefer the latter position, but freely admit that we lack sufficient information on the period before 1500 BC to resolve the issue.


This demonstrates why the individual who wrote the wiki entry cited above is not familiar with the Olmec chronology. The Olmecs did not emerge as an "identifiable" entity, separate from the foragers and farmers who had long inhabited the area - until 1600 BC. San Lorenzo, the earliest Olmec city, was not a full blown city until 1200 BC.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

It appears to me that Charity is stuck in an earlier phase of Book of Mormon apologetics, the ideas that Sorenson proposed decades ago. Sorenson believed that the Nephites and Jaredites did arrive on a prepopulated continent, but, in his earlier work, still appears to believe, like Charity today, that they would have been separate from the larger culture, like the "Amish" in Charity's words. Later apologetics, like Brant's, has had to discard this idea for a couple of reasons. One reason is if the Israelite populations had, indeed, kept themselves separate from the larger population throughout the Book of Mormon time period, they would have established identifiable genetic markings. The second is that if they had remained separate from the larger culture and retained their own culture, it would be quite easy to differentiate their archaeological remains from the remains of the larger culture. Neither of these ideas have panned out. Apologetics has been forced to evolve in a direction that accommodates for the lack of a Semitic genetic signature AND the fact that all archaeological remains in Mesoamerica fit within the purvue of the larger culture. No anomalies, like the Amish. Given the size of the Nephite polities, they would definitely be noticeable if they were separate. Therefore, more modern apologetics takes the view that the Nephites and Jaredites weren't separate at all.

From Brant Gardner's Book of Mormon website:

http://frontpage2000.nmia.com/~nahualli ... Ether1.htm

Sorenson places the event early in the Mulekite heritage in order to coincide with the archaeological evidence of the ending of the Olmec period in Mesoamerica:



“The final destruction of the Jared ruling line could have been as early as 580 B.C. or as late as 400 B.C. The Book of Mormon does not tell us enough to allow a more precise determination, although I believe a date toward the earlier end of that span is preferable. The archaeological record is now quite settled on about 550 B.C. for the end of the First Tradition.



Taking together the geographical setting, the cultural patterns, the agreement in dates, and many specific facts we cannot go into at this point, identifying the culture in which the Jaredites were involved with the First or Olmec Tradition is very reasonable.” (John L. Sorenson, An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon [Salt Lake City and Provo: Deseret Book Co., Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, 1985], 119.)



This reasoning works well if we assume that the Jaredites were the Olmec. However, that contention is quite unlikely. It is much better to indicate that the Jaredites were participants in the Olmec culture. This would place the ending of the Jaredites in the epi-Olmec phase rather than the Olmec proper. The ending of the Jaredites would then be parallel to the way that we see the ending of the Nephites in this commentary, as an ending of a particular polity, not a culture.



In other words, there is no destruction of an entire culture. Just one particular polity. The Nephites and Jaredites were participants in their respective larger cultures.

Of course, this apologia does not resolve all problems. The most significant problem is the fact that the Jaredite and Nephite polities, as described in the Book of Mormon, would be some of the most powerful polities of their time period. And, by definition, the most powerful polities were the exact ones who prescribed the cultural evolution of the entire region. Again, I go into this in detail in my essay here:

http://zarahemlacitylimits.com/wiki/ind ... E_KINGSHIP
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
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Post by _Trevor »

beastie wrote:There is no indication that Joseph Smith did not mean horse when he used the word horse. If you know of some, then offer it. Coe is offering his opinion on Book of Mormon apologetics*, which isn't a "scientific matter". What is a scientific matter is that there were no horses during the Book of Mormon time period in Mesoamerica.


Well, because it does not work, of course! If there is no evidence of horses, and Joseph Smith was a prophet, then it must be the case that 1) there were horses, but they have not been found yet, or 2) horses are not horses in the Book of Mormon. Of course, the problem here is that Joseph Smith's veracity and accuracy has been assumed as a given--the witness of the Spirit influencing the historical decisions of LDS folk.
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