this is one of the reasons why religion is dangerous

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_Bryan Inks
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Post by _Bryan Inks »

dartagnan wrote:
One the one hand, you have Atheists who killed because their of their political views.

On the other hand, you have Christians who killed because an invisible phallus in the clouds told them to.

I'll side with Stalin, thank you very much.


But this is false. The Crusades and most of the "Christian" examples you could pull up were just as much political as those by atheists and had nothing to do with people suddenly receiving visions from God to go kill. This is such a blatant misrepresentation of history. As I said before, religion was often used as a tool by political leaders, but nobody in the Crusades fought because they said God told them to. The Pope asked people to volunteer themselves to fight for their brothers who were suffering. A minority took matters into their own hands, but not with the consent of the church. All in all, the Crusades were very much a defensive maneuver to save Christianity from destruction. Two thrids of its territories had been wiped out by Islam before the Church decided to do something in response. Hence, the Crusades.


So, you agree that the spiritual alignment doesn't apply?
_marg

Post by _marg »

There hve been a number of people in this thread who have talked about "atheism" as a belief system. It is not. Dawkins in his recent book makes a comment that organizing atheists is like herding cats. There is no common denominator for atheists other than a lack of belief in a God. But no atheist that I know adheres to any sort of rules, or accepts unquestioningly the authority of an "atheist" organization.

In the example Sethbag gaves the problem is not "a belief in a God", the problem is the belief that the religious authority of the group one belongs to speak for an ultimate authority/God and then an uncritical acceptance of that authority. Not all theists belong to a religious organization, and of those who do belong, not all uncritically accept the dictates of their church authority.

Some religious organizations though are more demanding in requiring acceptance of their authority. And in some cases it seems as though many of the rules serve little other purpose that to operate as training and a test to see if people are willing to uncritically be obedient. It seems to me Mormonism is more demanding than many other Christian groups though perhaps it is easing up on its demands and becoming more mainstream. On the whole, from its inception the demands required an uncritical acceptance of authority, hence garment wearing, polygamy. in my opinion the problem with organized religion, is the encouragement of forgoing any sort of critical evaluation of its authority, that blind obedience, even when it obviously serves a detrimental purpose either to its followers or those outside the religious organization.

As far as some comments in this thread about atheists being immoral, you guys who made the comments have little appreciation of atheism.
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

And then let's compare to the millions that were killed in the Christian Crusades or the Inquisition or the Salem Witch Hunts.

One the one hand, you have Atheists who killed because their of their political views.

On the other hand, you have Christians who killed because an invisible phallus in the clouds told them to.

I'll side with Stalin, thank you very much



This is a mind on drugs.


'Nuff said.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

The tragic irony is that you don't even know who you are quoting. Ayn Rand said it well:


I don't know who I'm quoting? Would you please enlighten me as to who made the quoted statement then?

"Faith, as such, is extremely detrimental to human life: it is the negation of reason."

"every period of history dominated by mysticism, was a period of statism, of dictatorship, of tyranny."


I'm well aware of Rand's views on religion, but why I can't appreciate her critique of socialism because of this, I'm not sure I understand. George Riesman is an Atheist, and yet I still use and quote his work on economics and socialism extensively.

Wait, it gets better: Leonard Peikoff, whose work you also quoted, although he shares your anti-communistic views and doesn't know the difference between communism and socialism either, said:


"You are probably wondering here: "What about Communism? Isn't it a logical, scientific, atheistic philosophy, and yet doesn't it lead straight to totalitarianism?" The short answer to this is: Communism is not an expression of logic or science, but the exact opposite. Despite all its anti-religious posturings, Communism is nothing but a modern derivative of religion: it agrees with the essence of religion on every key issue, then merely gives that essence a new outward veneer or cover-up.
"


This is something I and other conservative intellectuals have been saying for decades. Joshua Muravchik recently wrote a book on the subject called Heaven on Earth: the Rise and Fall of Socialism. Socialism was "the God that failed" etc. Socialism is a secular religion, much as is environmentalism, another popular leftist alternative to serious, traditional religious commitment. Welcome to the club.


And here we have the ominous parallels. Notice how the things they object to in both religion and totalitarianism is the suppression of logic, reason, and individuality. It's pretty sad when your own sources turn against you, isn't it, Coggs? On a side note, although Peikoff hates liberals just like you, he hates conservatives even more and recommends voting only for Democrats and staying as far away as possible from Republicans who you seem to have a soft spot for. Why? Because Republicans tend to be religious.


And here's the rub. Some religions do suppress logic, reason, and individuality (like fundamentalist Islam, socialism, environmentalism, and forms of Protestant fundamentalism etc.) Other religions patently do not, and any claim that they do belies a propound ignorance of both the history of religion (including Islam), and just exactly what reason and logic are and can be expected to accomplish. Political ideology suppresses reason, logic, and individuality to a degree not seen in any but the most extreme examples of religions fanaticism, and does so, unlike fanatic religious commitment, without the consent of the those within its purview. One can leave a church one does not like. One could only get out of East Berlin by braving machine gun fire.

And here's another: no Mormons, Evangelical Protestants, conservative Catholics, or Christian Fundamentalists are blowing people up with suicide bombs, plotting the extinction of the Jews in Israel, flying aircraft into buildings, and saying the heads of journalists on Youtube. Indeed, most Muslims are not doing this. It is a form of Islam, political Islam, which, like socialism, fascism, and Nazism, is a totalitarian ideology driven by hate and lust for supreme power; by unfettered human hubris, and that's the problem. Rand is wrong and always was; the great world religions are a barrier to human depravity, not a incitement to it. It is only when religion becomes fused with the state (and when the state is, like most states until the birth of American from English liberalism, is one unlimited and unaccountable in its exercise of power), that religion becomes the engine of destruction so feared by secularist libertarians and leftists alike.

Peikoff sells Marxism short too, however, in the sense that socialism is a child of the Enlightenment, just as is classical liberalism. Leftism was a reaction to the Enlightenment, however, especially to its economic and political implications, but firmly rooted in its tradition of rationalism and positivism. This is why the early socialists called their system scientific socialism; they believed strongly that it was a derivation of the rationalist tradition.


Case closed. Now would be a good time to retreat with your tail between your legs and stop derailing the thread with your political rants. Bye-bye.





You haven't as yet made a case to close. Now, respond to Mr. Hitler please.
Last edited by Dr. Sunstoned on Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Trevor
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Post by _Trevor »

Coggins7 wrote:And here's another: no Mormons, Evangelical Protestants, conservative Catholics, or Christian Fundamentalists are blowing people up with suicide bombs, plotting the extinction of the Jews in Israel, flying aircraft into buildings, and saying the heads of journalists on Youtube. Indeed, most Muslims are not doing this. It is a form of Islam, political Islam, which, like socialism, fascism, and Nazism, is a totalitarian ideology driven by hate and lust for supreme power; by unfettered human hubris, and that's the problem.


Yes, just like the Crusades were "political Christianity" and Zion's march was "political Mormonism."
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_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

MishMagnet wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:
Find me a Christian dictator that murdered millions.


Oh, I know! How about God??



Oh you funny girl you....;-)
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

marg wrote:There hve been a number of people in this thread who have talked about "atheism" as a belief system. It is not. Dawkins in his recent book makes a comment that organizing atheists is like herding cats. There is no common denominator for atheists other than a lack of belief in a God. But no atheist that I know adheres to any sort of rules, or accepts unquestioningly the authority of an "atheist" organization.

In the example Sethbag gaves the problem is not "a belief in a God", the problem is the belief that the religious authority of the group one belongs to speak for an ultimate authority/God and then an uncritical acceptance of that authority. Not all theists belong to a religious organization, and of those who do belong, not all uncritically accept the dictates of their church authority.

Some religious organizations though are more demanding in requiring acceptance of their authority. And in some cases it seems as though many of the rules serve little other purpose that to operate as training and a test to see if people are willing to uncritically be obedient. It seems to me Mormonism is more demanding than many other Christian groups though perhaps it is easing up on its demands and becoming more mainstream. On the whole, from its inception the demands required an uncritical acceptance of authority, hence garment wearing, polygamy. in my opinion the problem with organized religion, is the encouragement of forgoing any sort of critical evaluation of its authority, that blind obedience, even when it obviously serves a detrimental purpose either to its followers or those outside the religious organization.

As far as some comments in this thread about atheists being immoral, you guys who made the comments have little appreciation of atheism.


Ok,

Well said.

I do not think atheists, in general, are immoral nor do I think a disbelief in God necessarily leads to immoral behavior. But I do think those that really try to practice their religion, usually seem more constrained and are less apt to commit atrocities that those who have no belief in a higher power may be.

But after reading through this thread here is what I conclude. Humans of all walks of life can be really sucky towards each other and do incomprehensible things, religious or not. And that is about all there is to it.
Last edited by Lem on Sat Dec 01, 2007 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Calculus Crusader
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Post by _Calculus Crusader »

Yong Xi wrote:
charity wrote:
beastie wrote:. . . . (and the idea of a 14 year being mature enough to make a life/death decision is laughable and based in ignorance in regards to the development of the human mind).


I agree with you here. And 14 year olds aren't old enough to decide about becoming sexually active, and taking birth control, and getting abortions, either. But our society has decided they are. Makes a person sick, all right.


I agree with this. It strikes me odd, though, that an eight year old is considered mature enough to choose their religion (LDS). Do they choose it?


That's a good point. For all their denunciation of paedobaptism, baptizing a child of 8 is not such a marked improvement.
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_Calculus Crusader
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Post by _Calculus Crusader »

Bryan Inks wrote:And then let's compare to the millions that were killed in the Christian Crusades or the Inquisition or the Salem Witch Hunts.

One the one hand, you have Atheists who killed because their of their political views.

On the other hand, you have Christians who killed because an invisible phallus in the clouds told them to.

I'll side with Stalin, thank you very much.


Don't be a dunce.
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

(I lost access to my Milesius account, so I had to retrieve this one from the mothballs.)
_marg

Post by _marg »

Jason Bourne wrote: Ok,

Well said.

I do not think atheists, in general, are immoral nor do I think a disbelief in God necessarily leads to immoral behavior. But I do think those that really try to practice their religion, usually seem more constrained and are less apt to commit atrocities that those who have no belief in a higher power may be.

But after reading through this thread here is what I conclude. Humans of all walks of life can be really sucky towards each other and do incomprehensible things, religious or not. And that is about all there is to it.



Why didn't the boy have the blood transfusion? No one was trying to be malicious to anyone else. The problem in this particular instance is the uncritical acceptance of church authority and their teachings, by the guardian of the boy. And doesn't Christianity teach uncritical acceptance of authority? i.e. the test by God of Abraham. Doesn't Mormonism church leaders encourage uncritical acceptance of their rules and dictates. Some people do buy into the notion to the extreme that one shouldn't critically question church authority. Others pick and choose what they will accept and follow. Don't you think that by promotion that certain teachings are too sacred to even discuss that it promotes uncritical acceptance. How on earth does the church get people to wear "sacred garments" were it not for the church's control and influence over people such that they willingly accept rituals and practices which serve little to not value and in some cases can be detrimental as in the J.W. blood transfusion issue.
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