thestyleguy wrote:who ever brought the prisoner a gun should have been arrested, tried and if convicted, put in jail. To have a gun in jail shows that you are playing the, there are no rules game with society, and if you are not going to follow the rules it looks like the neighbors didn't follow the rules too. Given Joseph's fleeing from state to state for breaking their laws, banging other men's wives and daughters, creating a new government (council of the fifty) and crowning himself king, you would think this would have happened a lot sooner. He likely would have been tried, found guilty for treason and hung if he stayed in missouri.
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Given the fact that the governor PROMISED the Smith's protection and given the fact that it was pretty clear that the Smith's enemies planned to murder them I think it was a pretty good idea to offer them some means to protect themselves. Are you opposed to self defense?
gun·fight /ˈgʌnˌfaɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[guhn-fahyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
a battle between two or more people or groups armed with guns, esp. a confrontation between two gunfighters using revolvers in the frontier days of the American West.
Shootout
Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - Cite This Source
A shootout is a gun battle between armed groups. A shootout often, but not necessarily, pits law enforcement against criminal elements. A shootout may also involve two groups outside of law enforcement, such as rival gangs. A shootout in a military context (i.e., regularly constituted armed forces or even guerrilla or insurgent forces) would usually be considered a battle or firefight (depending on size), rather than a shootout. Shootouts are often portrayed in action films.
The test for "shoot out" also comes back positive.
Bond...James Bond wrote:Were the folks that killed Joseph Smith anti-Mormon or anti-Joseph Smith? I'm thinking anti-Joseph Smith.
Both
And the thread here is ridiculous. It was not a shoot out at all. To say it was anything other then cold blooded murder is stupidity.
Actually, Jason, your post touches on one of the main points of my OP: Why is there this intense need to haggle over semantics on this issue? Joseph Smith *did* fire off some shots, and indeed wounded some of the other men. Joseph Smith *was* murdered in cold blood. Why is there such apparent anger on the part of partisan LDS on this issue? Do you feel, as DCP apparently does, that the fact that Joseph Smith fired shots "detracts" from his status as a "martyr"? Further, do you take issue with whitewashings of the incident, which omit Joseph Smith's firing of the gun?
thestyleguy wrote:who ever brought the prisoner a gun should have been arrested, tried and if convicted, put in jail. To have a gun in jail shows that you are playing the, there are no rules game with society, and if you are not going to follow the rules it looks like the neighbors didn't follow the rules too. Given Joseph's fleeing from state to state for breaking their laws, banging other men's wives and daughters, creating a new government (council of the fifty) and crowning himself king, you would think this would have happened a lot sooner. He likely would have been tried, found guilty for treason and hung if he stayed in missouri.
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Given the fact that the governor PROMISED the Smith's protection and given the fact that it was pretty clear that the Smith's enemies planned to murder them I think it was a pretty good idea to offer them some means to protect themselves. Are you opposed to self defense?
I will accept your thoughts that the governor promised him protection. I would like to see if historians other than LDS ones have a document promising protection. for me, the whole thing smells of Joseph wanting to go out in glory - guns a blazing. He was commander of small army at his command. But I still think the masons killed him...
LifeOnaPlate wrote:Actually, I see his point, and it is not only troubling, but adequately representative of the mindset demonstrated in that thread by some of the participants.
Huh. Would you please elaborate a bit, LoaP? I'm curious what you think A) "his point" was, and B) how it is "adequately representative of the mindset".....
His "point" was to blindside the reader with emotion.
Jersey Girl wrote:Oh, I'm not even going to read all of the posts on this thread. There is no need to. I saw the thread over on MAD and here is my opinion.
Both groups of men were armed. One group attacked with weapons. One group defended with weapons.
It was a gun fight. A shoot out.
It doesn't matter who disguised their identities or who shot first. For pete sakes people, it was what it was.
So I guess if an armed robber enters your house and you shoot at him to defend your home and house and he kills you it is a shoot out, a gun fight. If you are killed in it I guess you got what you deserved.
It was not a a gun fight. Smith shot only after his brother was killed. It was self defense.
Jersey Girl wrote:gun·fight /ˈgʌnˌfaɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[guhn-fahyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun a battle between two or more people or groups armed with guns, esp. a confrontation between two gunfighters using revolvers in the frontier days of the American West.
Yup, it was a gunfight.
No it was not. No more then if you shot at an armed robber.
Bond...James Bond wrote:Were the folks that killed Joseph Smith anti-Mormon or anti-Joseph Smith? I'm thinking anti-Joseph Smith.
Both
And the thread here is ridiculous. It was not a shoot out at all. To say it was anything other then cold blooded murder is stupidity.
Actually, Jason, your post touches on one of the main points of my OP: Why is there this intense need to haggle over semantics on this issue? Joseph Smith *did* fire off some shots, and indeed wounded some of the other men. Joseph Smith *was* murdered in cold blood. Why is there such apparent anger on the part of partisan LDS on this issue? Do you feel, as DCP apparently does, that the fact that Joseph Smith fired shots "detracts" from his status as a "martyr"? Further, do you take issue with whitewashings of the incident, which omit Joseph Smith's firing of the gun?
Mister Scratch: going against the spit and polished image of Joseph Smith that the LDS church spends millions each year to maintain brings out their minions.