Indefensible, Incoherent, Inconsistent. Who is Desperate?

[_Yoda]

Sorry I was gone so long this morning. My shift at the Family History Center. I could have scotched some of the sidetrails with an earlier post.

You have failed to address, except in blanket denials, the point of the post. Even if, as you say, the purpose of this message board is to provide an open forum for disucssion, why do you need to discuss the Church? It is pretty clear that you all have nothing but contempt for the Church, its leaders, its doctrine, its history. So why not just move on?

I don't believe in Scientology. It has no interest for me. I don't go to Scientology websites and tell anybody who will listen what a crock I think it is. Why would I waste my time?

So why are you wasting your time? I really would like to know the real reason.

This is not RfM. You are making blanket statements. We are not ALL here because we have contempt for the Church. As a matter of fact, I think there are actually only two or three folks on the board that I can think of who would REALLY fit into that category.

Some of us are members. Some who are no longer members who may feel the way you suggest can't just "move on" because they still have family extremely involved in the Church, and so it helps to discuss things with others in like situations.

I'm here for a number of different reasons. I starting posting on Shades' board when I was an active poster and Moderator at FAIR. I actually enjoyed posting on both boards. My main draw in posting on Shades board to begin with, was that there were several people who I had engaged in interesting conversations with on FAIR who had been banned, but were active posters here on Shades board.

After the craziness which occurred at FAIR/MAD with me (I'm not going to recount the details. If you're interested, you can go to Shades' blog and pull up my name. You will find the details there.), Kevin invited me to post and become a site manager on his board. Shades' board was down at the time. When Shades' board came back up in full swing, I began posting here again regularly, mainly because of the friendships I had made here. People were gracious to me here, and helped me through a time when I had been hurt by the goings on with Juliann and Dan at FAIR.

When things got busy here, I asked Shades if he needed some extra help Moderating, and have been a Mod here since.

I hold no contempt for the Church. There is doctrine I disagree with, but that doesn't mean I hate the Church or hold contempt for Church leaders.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Charity,

I hope you will take my advice... maybe you could practice with this issue. :-)

Even if, as you say, the purpose of this message board is to provide an open forum for disucssion, why do you need to discuss the Church?

For many of us here, the church will ALWAYS be a part of our lives. We have family, friends, community, some even work related situations that are concerned with the LDS church. I for one will ALWAYS, until I die, be "attached" in some way to the church because of my family.

In addition, many of us find the LDS religion fascinating. Personally I find many religions/myths fascinating. I'm a huge fan of Joseph Campbell and spent years delving into various beliefs. More recently I am interested in the idea of belief... the neurology, the cultural implications, the evolution of belief etc. etc. The topic intrigues me and since the LDS religion is the one I am most familiar with it, it becomes the focus.

It is not like any of us "NEED" to discuss the LDS church, it is that we enjoy it, we have fun, we learn, we play, we share ideas and insights. We support one another at times, and at other times challenge each other.

It is pretty clear that you all have nothing but contempt for the Church, its leaders, its doctrine, its history. So why not just move on?

Charity... here you go again. Rather than listening to various people, you jump to some outlandish claim that is completely incorrect. Step back and think about this. You could listen to folks on the board, ask how they feel, take time to try to understand people rather than jumping to conclusions based on your incorrect assumptions and holding onto them regardless of what people tell you. Can you see why this is irritating?

I don't believe in Scientology. It has no interest for me. I don't go to Scientology websites and tell anybody who will listen what a crock I think it is. Why would I waste my time?

Can you see the possibility that for those whose lives have been devoted to Scientology, who have given much of their time, money, and energy to Scientology, and whose family, community, and culture are all immersed in Scientology some may like to discuss their former belief system even after they no longer believe? I'm not asking if YOU would, I'm asking you if you could imagine that SOME former believers in Scientology may enjoy this or find it valuable? Before you answer just try to step back and think about it for a minute or two. Instead of just assuming that every former believer who was immersed into a religion or cult leaves and never discusses their life and former religion, just allow for the possibility that it may be an interesting topic for some.

So why are you wasting your time? I really would like to know the real reason.

You seem to think the discussions here are a waste of time. I think most of us would disagree with you.

Again... take my advice, (smile)... rather than just assume everyone is like you think they must be, why not listen to those who participate here. If you want to understand, stop assuming everyone is the way you think they must, or should be. Listen to the stories without judgment and rather than jumping to all sorts of conclusions realize that others may experience the world differently than you.

Now, after hearing several people share their reasons for being here... have you listened to them? Have you tried to understand? Have you looked at yourself and contemplated that you have misunderstood? Misjudged? That maybe you have not been an example of what it means to be a disciple of Christ? That maybe your approach is not helpful in trying to understand others?

~dancer~

[_charity]

Mormonism had a significant impact on my life. It still impacts my life through my family. It also has a fascinating history, and one aspect of apologia in particular interests me due to my interest in Mesoamerica. All of this add up to my enjoyment of discussing LDS issues.

Enjoyment in what way? You don't discuss. You attack.

This really isn't hard to understand. That believers find it so incomprehensible I think is more reflective of the fact that they don't want to understand.

You are constantly mind reading. Not very successfully, either, in my case, any way.

. . and would rather cling to the silly notion that "you can leave the church but can't leave it alone" means something about the truthfulness of the church.

Any one person's ideas tells you something about the truthfulness of the Church? Now that is a really funny idea.

Now let's look at the "silly notion." From my experience, most people who leave the Church jsut sort of fall away. It is a gradual walk away. More of a move along a contiuum from fully active to fully inactive. When asked why they are no longer active, they don't have any doctrinal issues, no history issues, occassionally a leadership issue but on the local level and not with a General Authority. In a rare case, someone was doing what they shouldn't have been doing and didn't like getting called on it.

I have only known one person who became an anti-Mormon. His was a pride issue. He had converted from a church where he had a prominent lay position. He was not given a calling he felt he merited. He said this in my hearing. The last time I saw him, he was carrying signs protesting at the open house of the Portland Temple. It wasn't doctrine or history.

So, if he decided he didn't like the Church after all, why was he driven to protesting? He had joined the Church as an adult. He was college educated. Pretty hard to make a case for being deceived. But he had to tear down the Church.

So, tell me how is it a silly notion that there are people who leave the Church but just can't leave it alone?

I know that, to many believers, the only good exmormon is a silent exmormon. It actually doesn't even matter if the silent exmormon views the church with the exact same attitude as the vocal exmormon. The silent exmormon is SILENT, and that's all that matters.

Again, a failed attempt at mind reading. I don't mind a single ex-Mormon. I do mind anti-Mormons who try to disrupt people exercising their freedom of religion, anti-Mormons who lie and mock, anti-Mormons who have stated their goal to destroy the Church. (Thnere is a difference between ex- and anti-Mormons.)

Gee, now why would believers want exmormons to be silent??? Hmmm, hmmm, hmmm, gotta think about that one. Ya think it has something to do with why scientologists want ex-scientologists to shut up, too?

Believers are saddened when anti-Mormons deceive people into leaving or not joining the Church. Believers are disgusted when anti-Mormons mock and ridicule them. Believers worry about eternal consequences for those anti-Mormons who try to destroy the Church.

[_Trevor]

Believers are saddened when anti-Mormons deceive people into leaving or not joining the Church.

As the saying goes, misery loves company, and the members of the LDS Church are sure hankering for a lot of company.

[_charity]

Believers are saddened when anti-Mormons deceive people into leaving or not joining the Church.

As the saying goes, misery loves company, and the members of the LDS Church are sure hankering for a lot of company.

I am sure you are aware that LDS live longer, healthier, happier lives than the average. Where is the misery? We are looking to share our joy.

[_Trevor]

I am sure you are aware that LDS live longer, healthier, happier lives than the average. Where is the misery? We are looking to share our joy.

As long as you are happy, charity. As for me and mine, we'll take our so-called misery over your so-called joy any day of the week.

[_the road to hana]

From my experience, most people who leave the Church jsut sort of fall away. It is a gradual walk away. More of a move along a contiuum from fully active to fully inactive. When asked why they are no longer active, they don't have any doctrinal issues, no history issues, occassionally a leadership issue but on the local level and not with a General Authority. In a rare case, someone was doing what they shouldn't have been doing and didn't like getting called on it.

What was it you were saying recently about the uselessness of anecdotal evidence?

So, tell me how is it a silly notion that there are people who leave the Church but just can't leave it alone?

Some people quit drinking alcohol cold turkey, and it's never an issue. Others attend meetings for support and will preach against the evils of alcoholism. In both cases, the bottom line is quitting drinking. Still, the path will be different for different people who choose to change their life in ways that are dramatic and paradigm- or lifestyle-changing.

I expect plenty of people convert to Mormonism and never mention their former faiths. Others try to persuade people from their former faith to leave it.

Believers are saddened when anti-Mormons deceive people into leaving or not joining the Church. Believers are disgusted when anti-Mormons mock and ridicule them. Believers worry about eternal consequences for those anti-Mormons who try to destroy the Church.

A big Huh? here. Mormons spend plenty of time taking people from other churches and persuading them to leave religions that might have been the faith of their childhood, even the faith of their family, perhaps for generations. Why does the church do this? Why do members of the church do this? Because they feel it is their moral imperative to do so. They will criticize other churches in the process in order to accomplish this goal. Why? Because they believe other churches are false.

Somewhere here at some point a light bulb has to go off in your head. Really.

Would you use the expression "fall away" for someone who converts to Mormonism? Did they "fall away" from their former faith? Did they commit some unmentionable sin, or were they offended by someone in their former church hierarchy, that opened the door for them to apostasize from their former religion? Or did they realize there was something missing or perhaps incorrect about their former faith that persuaded them to look elsewhere?

[_the road to hana]

I am sure you are aware that LDS live longer, healthier, happier lives than the average. Where is the misery? We are looking to share our joy.

Than the average what?

If the only point to belonging to Mormonism is what it will do for you in this life, and not the next, why advertise otherwise?

[_Trevor]

If the only point to belonging to Mormonism is what it will do for you in this life, and not the next, why advertise otherwise?

Pascal's wager. The final refuge of the desperate apologist.

[_charity]

What was it you were saying recently about the uselessness of anecdotal evidence?

At least, I am upfront, and always say when I am speaking from my experience, instead of the flat out "this is the way it is" remarks we see so often here.

So, tell me how is it a silly notion that there are people who leave the Church but just can't leave it alone?

I expect plenty of people convert to Mormonism and never mention their former faiths. Others try to persuade people from their former faith to leave it.

I looked around, and I couldn't find any message boards for people who are now LDS who were Catholics, or Methodists, etc. There don't seem to be any LDS converts whining about their former church memberships. Could you venture a guess why?

A big Huh? here. Mormons spend plenty of time taking people from other churches and persuading them to leave religions that might have been the faith of their childhood, even the faith of their family, perhaps for generations. Why does the church do this? Why do members of the church do this? Because they feel it is their moral imperative to do so. They will criticize other churches in the process in order to accomplish this goal. Why? Because they believe other churches are false.

The missionaries, and member missionaries don't have printed lessons about how awful any other denomination is. As President Hinckley said, we tell them to bring their truths, and we will add to them. We do not destroy any one else's faith. We try to give them added truth.

Would you use the expression "fall away" for someone who converts to Mormonism? Did they "fall away" from their former faith? Did they commit some unmentionable sin, or were they offended by someone in their former church hierarchy, that opened the door for them to apostasize from their former religion? Or did they realize there was something missing or perhaps incorrect about their former faith that persuaded them to look elsewhere?

Did they become less active in their former faith, stop going to church, etc. Did they leave because their feelings were hurt, or because they failed to live up to the standards of that denomination? Then they fell away from it.