Jesus Vs Joseph Cage match Smackdown

[_Runtu]

I agree with Liz and charity (who would have thunk?). I don't see church membes worshipping Joseph, as least not in the sense of religious worship. But I do see some "hero worship" or "cult of personality" going on all the time (and I do attend meetings, charity). Easter is a special occasion, but when people talk about the martyrdom in Carthage, the tears really flow. Joseph is treated almost as a demigod; when I grew up, we were taught that he was kind of a combination of Jesus and Superman. I think that's fading, thankfully, but for whatever reason, there seems to be an emotional connection between church members and Joseph Smith that there isn't with any other church leader, not even Jesus, from what I've seen.

[_charity]

I work in Primary and this year's Primary Program was "I'll Follow Him in Faith". The entire emphasis was on Jesus, not Joseph.

Next year's Primary Program is "I Am A Child of God".

Most of the Sacrament Meeting themes this past year, at least in my Ward, have been focussed on Christ.

I think some of you are selling that emphasis short, and creating a straw man.

Now, I do find it odd that the December issue of the Ensign isn't focusing on the Savior more, if, indeed, it isn't. I haven't seen the December issue yet.

The cover of the Dec 2007 Ensign is the Three Wise Men and the Star.
This is the table of contents:

These, Our Little Ones, Gordon B. Hinckley
A Season for Angels, Merrill J. Bateman
Questions and Answers
Guard Him, Joseph, a song by Sally DeFord (The Josdeph is Mary's husband, not Joseph Smith)
The Truth Found Me, Marianne Rohrbough
We Let Them Learn, LaVerd and Flora John
There Shall Be a Record Kept among You, Marlin K. Jensen
The Joseph Smith Journals, Mark Ashurst-McGee and Alex Smith
A Mother and an Overflowing Heart
Jesus of Nazareth, Savior and King, Neal A. Maxwell
Facing the Future with Hope, Lowell M. Snow
Learning Not to Count , Steffani R. Packer
Mongolia: Steppes of Faith, Don L. Searle
Visiting Teaching Message:
Become an Instrument in the Hands of God by Exercising Charity
Latter-day Saint Voices
Random Sampler
News of the Church

[_karl61]

I was reading a book on the Smoot hearings. The Congressman did accuse the church of worshipping Joseph Smith then. It's something that critics charge all the time. If you go to sunday school and the whole lesson is on Joseph Smith and not Jesus Christ then some may say Joseph is the the one worshipped at that meeting.

This charge is only made and believed by people who don't go to LDS meetings. Anyone who attends knows this is a crock.

Now given that per D&C Abraham is already and God. And according to many Joseph Smith is the greatest prophet ever, then some may say that Joseph Smith is now a God.

So is Moses. Enoch. Noah. So?

According to Brigham Young, no one will enter heaven without Joseph's approval. Is Joseph then a mediator or abitrator/judge. Is Jesus a mediator or arbitrator/Judge. I am finishing up a class at school in mediation and arbitration - they are two different things. People throw these thoughts freely in the LDS church and no one calls the person on it; if you do then you are a trouble maker and need to be watched.

Matthew 19: 27 ¶ Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the generation when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The order of things is that the prophets and apostles who head each dispensation will judge the people of that generation.
The twelve apostles judge the children of Israel, by delegated authority, as does Joseph this generation, also by delegated authority from Christ.

Unless you don't believe the Bible, of course.

So who is going to judge us Charity: If Joseph Smith gets to say who goes in then he is a judge, or are the Apostles the judge or is Jesus Christ the judge or is Jesus Christ the mediator as Boyd K Packer has written. That's the issue with the LDS religion and maybe Christianity in general because every verse just about contridicts every other verse and it seems as if the answer is always different from meeting to meeting from person to person from elders quorum meeting to elders quorum meeting.

[_charity]

So who is going to judge us Charity: If Joseph Smith gets to say who goes in then he is a judge, or are the Apostles the judge or is Jesus Christ the judge or is Jesus Christ the mediator as Boyd K Packer has written. That's the issue with the LDS religion and maybe Christianity in general because every verse just about contridicts every other verse and it seems as if the answer is always different from meeting to meeting from person to person from elders quorum meeting to elders quorum meeting.

If you want my personal opinion, I think we will judge ourselves. We will have a bright recolleciton of all our actions, thoughts, etc. And we will know that Jesus knows. Nothing hidden. That will be our judgement.

But God's kingdom is a kingdom of order. And authority is delgated.

God must follow law. We have broken the law. Jesus paid for our sins and thus mediates between God and us. He is the mediator.

But the atonement only works for those who accept it. It is of no effect on those who reject Christ. Therefore, Jesus is the judge of those who have met the requirements of accepting the atonement and those who haven't. He is the judge. He delegates his right to judge to those who stand at the head of each dispensation. So the Twelve Apostles judge the dispensation of the Meridian of Times. Joseph judges the dispensation of the fulness of times. And the others judge their dispnesatins, Noah, Moses, Enoch, etc.

[_LifeOnaPlate]

Jesus is the foundation of Mormonism? Really?

So Jesus delivered the Book of Mormon, Jesus led the church, etc is what we hear from Mormons. All well and good if you believe what Joe said. But what of the majority that actually see through the bull? For us in the majority who see through the smoke and mirrors, it is Joe that is the sole "savior" of Mormons.

Without Joe you would not have Mormonism. True, this is a semantics game but lets be honest. The focus is not on Jesus...he is just a puppet no one ever interacted with. Joe is the real savior of Mormonism, valid or not. Mormons are better off worshiping joe and in a way although they do not recognize him officially as a savior, in Mormonism the same applies to Joe as it does to Jesus.

The one question to get this conversation going is Who will be judging you after you die? Mormonism dictates that the prophet of this dispensation is Joe and HE (along wiht Jesus and the Kolob dwelling space-god) will judge your worthiness.

So...if Joe is to judge us, the standard of truth is as limp as it gets. A pedophile, a bigamist, bank fraud perpetrator and several other unsavory designations hang above joes head. Would you want to be judged by this savior?

Parenthetically, the concept of disciples "judging" is also found in the New Testament.

[_Jason Bourne]

Jesus is the foundation of Mormonism? Really?

So Jesus delivered the Book of Mormon, Jesus led the church, etc is what we hear from Mormons. All well and good if you believe what Joe said. But what of the majority that actually see through the bull? For us in the majority who see through the smoke and mirrors, it is Joe that is the sole "savior" of Mormons.

Without Joe you would not have Mormonism. True, this is a semantics game but lets be honest. The focus is not on Jesus...he is just a puppet no one ever interacted with. Joe is the real savior of Mormonism, valid or not. Mormons are better off worshiping joe and in a way although they do not recognize him officially as a savior, in Mormonism the same applies to Joe as it does to Jesus.

The one question to get this conversation going is Who will be judging you after you die? Mormonism dictates that the prophet of this dispensation is Joe and HE (along wiht Jesus and the Kolob dwelling space-god) will judge your worthiness.

So...if Joe is to judge us, the standard of truth is as limp as it gets. A pedophile, a bigamist, bank fraud perpetrator and several other unsavory designations hang above joes head. Would you want to be judged by this savior?

Of course if Jesus (who you do no believe in anyway) was not involved then it is all Joseph Smith. However if he was then it is all Jesus and Joseph is simply and apostle same as Paul or Peter and GOd worked through him

Of course for LDS that believe it is really all Jesus though Joseph has his role. So no, for believers Joseph is not the savior of Mormonism.

[_ozemc]

Matthew 19: 27 ¶ Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the generation when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The order of things is that the prophets and apostles who head each dispensation will judge the people of that generation.
The twelve apostles judge the children of Israel, by delegated authority, as does Joseph this generation, also by delegated authority from Christ.

Unless you don't believe the Bible, of course.

Where in the passage you quoted is there anything about other judges than the 12 apostles?

[_the road to hana]

But the atonement only works for those who accept it. It is of no effect on those who reject Christ.

I think you might want to qualify that statement. Even from an LDS standpoint, the atonement is universal and unconditional. You might be more correct, in LDS theological terms, to state, "Certain limited aspects of the atonement only work for those who accept. . .Christ."

In non-LDS theological terms, much of non-LDS Christianity believes that the atonement is entirely unconditional and universal.

The universal, infinite, and unconditional aspects of the Atonement of Jesus Christ are several. They include his ransom for Adam´s original transgression so that no member of the human family is held responsible for that sin (A of F 2; see Original Sin). Another universal gift is the resurrection from the dead of every man, woman, and child who lives, has ever lived, or ever will live, on the earth. Thus, the Atonement is not only universal in the sense that it saves the entire human family from physical death, but it is also infinite in the sense that its impact and efficacy in making redemption possible for all reach back in one direction to the beginning of time and forward in the other direction throughout all eternity. In short, the Atonement has universal, infinite, and unconditional consequences for all mankind throughout the duration of all eternity.--Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, Encyclopedia of Mormonism

[_charity]

Matthew 19: 27 ¶ Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the generation when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The order of things is that the prophets and apostles who head each dispensation will judge the people of that generation.
The twelve apostles judge the children of Israel, by delegated authority, as does Joseph this generation, also by delegated authority from Christ.

Unless you don't believe the Bible, of course.

Where in the passage you quoted is there anything about other judges than the 12 apostles?

It is the pattern. If the 12 Apostles judge the Children of Israel, then it makes sense that Joseph Smith (the Peter the Apostle of this dispensation) would stand to judge this genreation.

[_the road to hana]

It is the pattern. If the 12 Apostles judge the Children of Israel, then it makes sense that Joseph Smith (the Peter the Apostle of this dispensation) would stand to judge this genreation.

In your mind, then, who judges people who lived between the time of Peter and Joseph Smith?