charity wrote: Each dispensation has ended in apostacy, until this one which is prophecied not to end in apostacy unlike the others.
Could you point me toward the specific prophecy that states that "this dispensation" will not "end in apostacy" (sic)? It seems to me there exists plenty of "apostasy" in the church Joseph Smith organized. How does that differ?
Ephesians 1 and Doctrine and Covenants 13.
Ephesians 1: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
the road to hana wrote:And who wrote D&C Section 13?
John the Baptist delivered the word of the Lord to both Joseph Smith and Olivery Cowdery.
the road to hana wrote: charity wrote: What "apostasy" do you think exists? Certainly there are many who would argue that anything Joseph Smith "organized" was founded in apostasy, but assuming for the sake of this argument that that is not the case, I would suggest the following could be considered by some to be indicative of apostasy:
*succession crisis following the death of the founder
*numerous splinter groups (over 200 at last count)
*disputes over doctrine
*changing doctrine and practice
*substantial individual "apostasy"
*more than one person considered currently to be the correct "heir" of Joseph Smith, and numerous sets of "apostles"
*diversity in the scriptural canon from one sect to another
apostasy (source is dictionary.com) a total desertion of or departure from one's religion, principles, party, cause, etc.
the state of having rejected your religious beliefs or your political party or a cause (often in favor of opposing beliefs or causes)
Do you see anything in the meaning of the word that fits, since we have the revleaitons from the beginning of the restoration. It doesn't mean anything what splinter groups do or don't do. There is still the unbroken line from the beginning with millions of adherents.
charity wrote: Each dispensation has ended in apostacy, until this one which is prophecied not to end in apostacy unlike the others.
Could you point me toward the specific prophecy that states that "this dispensation" will not "end in apostacy" (sic)? It seems to me there exists plenty of "apostasy" in the church Joseph Smith organized. How does that differ?
Ephesians 1: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
"Gather" does not necessarily imply "lost." Nor does this state when the "dispensation of the fulness of times" begins.
the road to hana wrote:
charity wrote:And who wrote D&C Section 13?
John the Baptist delivered the word of the Lord to both Joseph Smith and Olivery Cowdery.
According to whom? Joseph Smith, most conveniently. In fact, they state it was "an angel, who announced himself as John."
The road is beautiful, treacherous, and full of twists and turns.
charity wrote:Do you see anything in the meaning of the word that fits, since we have the revleaitons from the beginning of the restoration. It doesn't mean anything what splinter groups do or don't do. There is still the unbroken line from the beginning with millions of adherents.
I had no idea you were Catholic.
The road is beautiful, treacherous, and full of twists and turns.
liz3564 wrote:I work in Primary and this year's Primary Program was "I'll Follow Him in Faith". The entire emphasis was on Jesus, not Joseph.
Next year's Primary Program is "I Am A Child of God".
Most of the Sacrament Meeting themes this past year, at least in my Ward, have been focussed on Christ.
I think some of you are selling that emphasis short, and creating a straw man.
Now, I do find it odd that the December issue of the Ensign isn't focusing on the Savior more, if, indeed, it isn't. I haven't seen the December issue yet.
Hmm, I wonder if its Jesus or Joseph who is appearing this year to the board? Given ALL of joes star treatment last year you would think...maybe, just maybe that the Ensign would be about Christ in December? What was on the cover Liz? It was CHRISTmas for chrissakes!
(literally, Chrissakes!)
And crawling on the planet's face Some insects called the human race Lost in time And lost in space...and meaning
charity wrote: Matthew 19: 27 ¶ Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the generation when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
The order of things is that the prophets and apostles who head each dispensation will judge the people of that generation. The twelve apostles judge the children of Israel, by delegated authority, as does Joseph this generation, also by delegated authority from Christ.
Unless you don't believe the Bible, of course.
Where in the passage you quoted is there anything about other judges than the 12 apostles?
It is the pattern. If the 12 Apostles judge the Children of Israel, then it makes sense that Joseph Smith (the Peter the Apostle of this dispensation) would stand to judge this genreation.
And where does Christ mention any of this? You say it is a pattern, but these were words specifically for the people to whom He was speaking.
How does someone who lived almost 2000 years later have anything to do with it?
"What does God need with a starship?" - Captain James T. Kirk
Most people would like to be delivered from temptation but would like it to keep in touch. - Robert Orben
ozemc wrote: And where does Christ mention any of this? You say it is a pattern, but these were words specifically for the people to whom He was speaking.
How does someone who lived almost 2000 years later have anything to do with it?
The whole point is that this is one plan throughout all the ages. It is called the plan of salvation. What Jesus said is still true.
ozemc wrote: And where does Christ mention any of this? You say it is a pattern, but these were words specifically for the people to whom He was speaking.
How does someone who lived almost 2000 years later have anything to do with it?
The whole point is that this is one plan throughout all the ages. It is called the plan of salvation. What Jesus said is still true.
Yet, you didn't answer my orginal question of where does it say there will be other judges other than the Apostles being the 12 judges of Israel?
Is Paul a judge? Stephen?
Is there something in the Old Testament about Moses being a judge in the resurrection?
Edited to add:
Other than the apostles, it looks from what I can read is that only Jesus Himself is to be the judge. None of the other leaders in the Bible are listed as being judges.
"What does God need with a starship?" - Captain James T. Kirk
Most people would like to be delivered from temptation but would like it to keep in touch. - Robert Orben