Narrow neck of land

[_Blixa]

Paul, I'm curious about your thoughts on what are called the "Holley Maps," which is what Dr. Shades was refering to.

[_charity]

Although the land was broken up and the rocks cracked due to the shaking of the earth it is reasonable to assume that the basic geographical shape of the Book of Mormon bounderies were constant. There was the narrow neck and the two lands: North and south. Some cities were sunk suggesting that the coastslines were deformed to some degree. But there remained a "narrow neck", nonetheless.

We just don't know the extend of the deformation, was all I was saying. So if someone these 2000 years later tries to perform an experiment, he could not really claim that the conditions were the same.

Charity, you infer that I need to read the Book of Mormon text carefully. Well, I’ve done that more times than I have fingers and toes.

I didn't mean to say you hadn't. Sorry. But with the piece from Alma along with the others which mention the distance, I got a clearer picture. I should have referenced only my own need to carefully consider all the text and not just part of it.

Look, the trip across the narrow neck is from sea to sea, thus, feet in the sands of the eastern sea and feet in the sands of the western sea. Common sense tells me that it is what Alma meant even though he did not spell it out in plain English like you might require. Indeed, the distance of a Nephite in traversing the neck is from beach to beach – putting it plainly, that’s the west beach on one side of the land and the east beach on the other side. The whole line must be fortified lest the Lamanites sneak through. The Nephite generals understood this quite well. [/quote]

In a piece written by Matthew Roper, he suggests that the "Nephite" could have been a military courier, and was going between fortifcations, not exactly sand to sand. The whole article is cut and pasted below.



"Travel across the "Narrow Neck of Land"
In recent years a number of Book of Mormon scholars have associated the "narrow neck of land" mentioned by Mormon with the Mexican Isthmus of Tehuantepec. Mormon states that it was approximately "a day and a half's journey for a Nephite, on the line Bountiful and the land Desolation, from the east to the west sea" (Alma 22:32). This was the speed "for a Nephite," and presumably a group of people or even a non-Nephite might take longer. Moreover, since Mormon was speaking of a fortified line of defense along which communication would be desirable, the phrase "for a Nephite" may refer to the time it would take for a messenger or courier.

John L. Sorenson has documented examples of native Mexican runners traveling distances of up to 100 miles in a day.1 We need not assume, however, that the entire journey was by foot. More than half of this distance could have been traveled by water along the Coatzacoalcos River, speeding up the journey considerably. Mesoamerican historian Ross Hassig notes that in travels by sea from Veracruz to Coatzacoalcos, "canoes were employed to go up the Coatzacoalcos River to Antigua Malpaso, where land transport was employed for the remaining 12 leagues to Tehuantepec. This route was also employed in traveling between Mexico City and Tehuantepec, [because] water transportation was easier than overland travel."2

In the mid-19th century, "the products of the Pacific side, destined for the Gulf Coast, [were] first brought down to this place [Antigua Malpaso] for embarkation; and occasional cargoes of goods from Vera Cruz ascend[ed] the river to this point, from whence they [were] carried to the Pacific plains on mules."3 A similar route used during the same time period followed this route to Suchil at the head of the Coatzacoalcos River and from there down to city of Tehuantepec along the Pacific coast.4

In the Tehuantepec region, light balsa wood rafts are frequently hewn out of trees and used for transportation along the local water routes. "The dexterity with which the Indians manage these balsas (often heavily laden), in passing over terrible rapids and through narrow passages filled with rugged rocks, where even a canoe could not possibly live, is truly surprising."5 Kamar Al-Shimas notes that various kinds of canoes are also used in this region: "When ascending the river the boat is kept within arm's length of the bank, and fifteen miles with a heavily loaded canoe or thirty miles with a light traveling-canoe is accounted a good day's work. In descending the stream, paddles are used, the canoe is kept to the center of the stream to take advantage of the current, and fifty miles is easily accomplished between daylight and set of the sun."6

While it was a day and a half journey on the defensive line "from the east to the west sea" (Alma 22:32), it was apparently only a day's journey "from the west sea unto the east" (Helaman 3:7). Although other interpretations are possible, these two passages would make sense if part of that journey was by water, since those traveling eastward would be going downstream and could presumably move much faster with the current than would those journeying upstream. "

[_Paul Osborne]

Paul, I'm curious about your thoughts on what are called the "Holley Maps," which is what Dr. Shades was refering to.

I need to see a copy of the original in order to comment.

In a piece written by Matthew Roper, he suggests that the "Nephite" could have been a military courier, and was going between fortifcations, not exactly sand to sand. The whole article is cut and pasted below.

Well, the difference between what Matthew Roper suggests and how I interpret the Book of Mormon text with regards to traversing the narrow neck may be two different things. My mind paints the picture given by the Book of Mormon in very simple terms. I see a military post on the east side of the neck and another on the west. These two posts are the checkpoints of the two shorelines.

"And now, it was only the distance of a day and a half’s journey for a Nephite, on the line Bountiful and the land Desolation, from the east to the west sea; and thus the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water, there being a small neck of land between the land northward and the land southward."

Paul O

[_Paul Osborne]

We just don't know the extend of the deformation, was all I was saying. So if someone these 2000 years later tries to perform an experiment, he could not really claim that the conditions were the same.

The test run is not a waste of time. It will tell us whether the land (as presently constituted) can be traversed in a day and a half. Further study of the landform can help determine how much the neck may have changed over the centuries or, if it remained constant. Is there scientific basis in supposing the neck has changed its form since the late Nephites called it the narrow neck? If the mountainous chain has been there since the days of Mormon, then that’s a good measuring stick.

Paul O

[_Dr. Shades]

Paul O:

What is your opinion of my statement that the only region which meets all the Book of Mormon qualifications for the "Narrow Neck of Land" is the Isthmus of Niagra?

[_Imwashingmypirate]

Does Niageria work for all the discription of the Book of Mormon though?

[_Blixa]

Sorry to take so long getting back to you, Paul. The "Holley Maps" come from Vernal Holley's work on the Spaulding manuscript as a source for the Book of Mormon. Whether one subscribes to that or not, I think the map comparisons are interesting as Joseph Smith also lived in the same area.

Here is one version:

http://www.mazeministry.com/Mormonism/h ... eymaps.htm

and another more cleaned up and annotated version can be found here:

http://solomonspalding.com/docs2/vernP3.htm#pg6061

Feel free to also chime in, Imwashingmypirate, as to how you think these maps "work" (or don't).

[_Paul Osborne]

Paul O:

What is your opinion of my statement that the only region which meets all the Book of Mormon qualifications for the "Narrow Neck of Land" is the Isthmus of Niagra?

I’ve looked at the Isthmus of Niagara carefully and have read apologetic theories on this point. But it just doesn’t seem to fit the bill. I’d be happy to see it agree with the Book of Mormon map but in my mind it doesn’t. Frankly, I’ve pulled out some of my hair trying to figure this one out. Book of Mormon geography is an enigma. I’ve ever been one to believe Cumorah was in New York just like so many have also believed, but there are obvious problems in defining the geographical place settings as they relate to the descriptions given in the Book of Mormon.

I have an open mind and am looking at all places on the American continent. I just don’t have the answers at this time. But I will eventually.

Paul O

[_Paul Osborne]

Blixa,

I will look at the links you provided. I was hoping there would be scanned images of the original work. It will be neccessary to confirm that the presentation found on these links is an actual reproduction of the original available in Joseph Smith's day. I have to assume these links have been reviewed by LDS apologists; am I right?

Paul O

[_Blixa]

Blixa,

I will look at the links you provided. I was hoping there would be scanned images of the original work. It will be neccessary to confirm that the presentation found on these links is an actual reproduction of the original available in Joseph Smith's day. I have to assume these links have been reviewed by LDS apologists; am I right?

Paul O

Yes, there is a FARMS paper in response it.

The second link I gave is from Dale Broadhurst's Solomon Spaulding site and I'm not sure what the status is of the online version of Holley's book. I think it is still being annotated with supportive links and bibliography, so perhaps there are links to resources for maps available in Joseph Smith's time? If not, I don't think they would be that hard to scare up, but maybe I'm not clear on what it is you are looking for: a 19th C map of upstate NY?

If I recall correctly one of the FARM's complaints was that the map of Book of Mormon places was inconsistent with how the relationship between the places described in the Book of Mormon. That's something to consider, too, I'm sure.