Romney not to get into specifics about LDS beliefs but will

[_ozemc]

No, he is not a Christian, he is a Mormon. His entire view of Christianity was created by Joseph Smith and does not adhere at all to Christianity.

Yes he is a Christian. Mormonism is a subset of Christianity. This is like a Catholic saying Lutherans are not Christian because their view of Christianity was created by Martin Luther.

Of course, both Catholics and Lutherans believe Jesus Christ is God. The disputes Luther had with the Catholic church were not theological in nature. The main beliefs are pretty much the same. Do Mormons believe Jesus Christ is God, i.e the same as the Father, and the Holy Spirit?

To say it does not adhere to Christianity at all is stupidity. I won't bother to list all the Christian elements Mormonism contains.

No, but we could list some of the Mormon elements that Christianity does not contain, such as:

Jesus and Lucifer were spirit brothers

God was once a man

When I die, I can become a God

There are 3 heavens, and which one you go to depends on how you lived your life.

[_asbestosman]

So Romney flip-flopped on the abortion issue. Big deal! Doesn't everyone pretty much accept the fact that it's practically a requirement in American politics to try to please both sides somehow?

I view flip-flopping on abortion to be pretty much the same as breaking the speed limit: You're technically not supposed to do it, but everyone does it anyway, no one thinks the worse of you for it, and it's almost a necessity.

The specifics of Romney's flip-flop are not so simple. He seems to have invented a conversation with a Harvard stem cell researcher, Douglas Melton, in order to explain away the flip-flop in moral terms rathern than as political expediency. Dr. Melton maintains they did not even talk about killing embryos. Romney made it up.

Paradigm Pirate for president! Oh wait, Tsuzuki said that Paradigm Pirates actually have to believe what they pirate--at least temporarily.

[_Jason Bourne]

Romney's speech has been given. Here is a link to the full text:

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=23830

A highlight:

"Almost 50 years ago another candidate from Massachusetts explained that he was an American running for president, not a Catholic running for president. Like him, I am an American running for president. I do not define my candidacy by my religion. A person should not be elected because of his faith nor should he be rejected because of his faith.

"Let me assure you that no authorities of my church, or of any other church for that matter, will ever exert influence on presidential decisions. Their authority is theirs, within the province of church affairs, and it ends where the affairs of the nation begin.

"As governor, I tried to do the right as best I knew it, serving the law and answering to the Constitution. I did not confuse the particular teachings of my church with the obligations of the office and of the Constitution – and of course, I would not do so as President. I will put no doctrine of any church above the plain duties of the office and the sovereign authority of the law."

Also:

"There are some who would have a presidential candidate describe and explain his church's distinctive doctrines. To do so would enable the very religious test the founders prohibited in the Constitution. No candidate should become the spokesman for his faith. For if he becomes President he will need the prayers of the people of all faiths."

Good comments.

[_Blixa]

Romney's speech has been given. Here is a link to the full text:

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=23830

A highlight:

"Almost 50 years ago another candidate from Massachusetts explained that he was an American running for president, not a Catholic running for president. Like him, I am an American running for president. I do not define my candidacy by my religion. A person should not be elected because of his faith nor should he be rejected because of his faith.

"Let me assure you that no authorities of my church, or of any other church for that matter, will ever exert influence on presidential decisions. Their authority is theirs, within the province of church affairs, and it ends where the affairs of the nation begin.

"As governor, I tried to do the right as best I knew it, serving the law and answering to the Constitution. I did not confuse the particular teachings of my church with the obligations of the office and of the Constitution – and of course, I would not do so as President. I will put no doctrine of any church above the plain duties of the office and the sovereign authority of the law."

Also:

"There are some who would have a presidential candidate describe and explain his church's distinctive doctrines. To do so would enable the very religious test the founders prohibited in the Constitution. No candidate should become the spokesman for his faith. For if he becomes President he will need the prayers of the people of all faiths."

Good comments.

I only skimmed it quickly, Jason, via the NYT website. I really didn't see any discussion of Mormonism per se. Just a lot of very predictable "founding fathers christian" rhetoric and yada yada about "freedom" and other conventional political speech trappings. Of course I didn't expect it to be anything different, but I suppose it was even less than I expected in some sense...

[_MishMagnet]

On another board I frequent (a secular board) the Mormon subset was very pleased with Romney's speach and also very nervous about the fallout from said speech. I guess nobody else watched the speech as there were no comments. As usual only Mormons and former Mormons seem to care.

[_ozemc]

Well, being at work, I was only able to watch a little bit online, but my observations were that:

1. It was very generic, and because of that

2. More people will be drawn to see what Mormonism is really about.

I really think that many people were thinking that he would discuss the particulars of Mormonism, but, of course, he couldn't do that. He was definitely between a rock and a hard place.

I don't think the speech will make a difference one way or the other.

[_Jason Bourne]

JB - Are FLDS 'Mormons'?

I have no problem if they want to call themselves Mormon.

[_Jason Bourne]

Of course, both Catholics and Lutherans believe Jesus Christ is God. The disputes Luther had with the Catholic church were not theological in nature. The main beliefs are pretty much the same. Do Mormons believe Jesus Christ is God, I.e the same as the Father, and the Holy Spirit?

Mormons believe Jesus is God and one with God and th HG in every way accept substance and essence. The Book of Mormon and even D&C are pretty clear on this.

No, but we could list some of the Mormon elements that Christianity does not contain, such as:

Jesus and Lucifer were spirit brothers

God was once a man

When I die, I can become a God

There are 3 heavens, and which one you go to depends on how you lived your life.

If you want to state that Mormonism contains doctrine that is not orthodox and even can be considered heritcal ny some orthodox Christians then fine. That does not make Mormons not Christian.

[_Runtu]

On another board I frequent (a secular board) the Mormon subset was very pleased with Romney's speach and also very nervous about the fallout from said speech. I guess nobody else watched the speech as there were no comments. As usual only Mormons and former Mormons seem to care.

So I'm listening to KSL on my way back from lunch, and of course they're making a big deal about it. But then Sean Hannity comes on, and although I never listen to him (obnoxious blowhard) he led his show playing a clip from JFK's 1960 speech and playing clips from Romney's speech. He liked the speech, so if he's at all representative of the right wing, maybe it went over well. I don't know.

[_ozemc]

Of course, both Catholics and Lutherans believe Jesus Christ is God. The disputes Luther had with the Catholic church were not theological in nature. The main beliefs are pretty much the same. Do Mormons believe Jesus Christ is God, I.e the same as the Father, and the Holy Spirit?

Mormons believe Jesus is God and one with God and th HG in every way accept substance and essence. The Book of Mormon and even D&C are pretty clear on this.

I'm sorry, I didn't follow you. I'm assuming you meant to write "except" instead of "accept".

Christian religions, whether Catholic or Protestant, believe in the the oneness of substance and essence, i.e the Trinity.

I don't think this is a Mormon belief; I could be wrong.

No, but we could list some of the Mormon elements that Christianity does not contain, such as:

Jesus and Lucifer were spirit brothers

God was once a man

When I die, I can become a God

There are 3 heavens, and which one you go to depends on how you lived your life.

If you want to state that Mormonism contains doctrine that is not orthodox and even can be considered heritcal ny some orthodox Christians then fine. That does not make Mormons not Christian.

If standard, or orthodox, Christianity defines Jesus Christ as one with the Father and Holy Ghost, and Lucifer as a fallen angel, then saying Jesus and Lucifer are brothers is not Christian.

If standard, or orthodox, Christianity states that God is eternal, and Mormonism says God was once a man, that is not Christian.

If standard, or orthodox, Christianity says that there is one God, and Mormonism says that I can become a God when I die, that is not Christian.

Just because the Mormon church uses Jesus Christ in its name, doesn't make it a Christian church.

Yes, it is Christian, the way it defines Christian, but not the way the term is normally defined.

I can say I'm eating a fish called Mahi-Mahi at a restaurant, but it's still dolphin, no matter what I call it.