Utah rape stats

[_Imwashingmypirate]

Moniker wrote:


The act of intercourse WITH OUT consent is rape, Charity. It has nothing to do with whether the person themselves defines it. If sexual assault occurred when there was not consent THAT is rape.

Of course, it has to do with what the woman thinks. She is the one giving or not giving consent! You can't decide for her.

[/quote]

Actually, Women can be raped whether they give consent or not. Sexual assault is NOT the same as rape. Therefore whether consent was given or not it was NOT rape. Rape is when a woman has been made to give SEXUAL INTERCOURSE against her wishes, whether she gives consent or not. Sexual assault is not rape unless sexual intercourse has taken place during this assault. But sexual ASSAULTS are other types of sexual acts other than sex. Women might be assaulted then raped.

Women might not desire sexual intercourse with a man but will do it to keep him happy, to please him, to prevent herself being hurt and so forth. Women in abusive marrages which involve marital rape are less likely to say no because they could get beat up. It doesn't mean they consent to it though.

PW[/quote]

[_Imwashingmypirate]

Patriarchy is often the cause of male abusers but among other things. It is about feeling inferior. Some men rape because they feel they cannot get a woman and so this is due to self esteem issues. Some men have a chemical imbalance. Some think the world is their oyster and can do as they wish. Some are on drugs, some think it is right. Some think they deserve it. Some think it is their right and some think they have been led along by the woman. Some men are just sick. But mostly because me are W*****s sometimes. Oh what I was going to say was they want power and it came out as they were W**..... It's not so much a want of power it's more a need. They do not want that they are inferior. But they know they are and the only people they feel they can abuse is women and children and week men. This makes them feel better about themselves because they are above someone. I am rambling again.

PW

[_charity]

Well, then, go with Idaho, which is still largely LDS and also has an above average rape rate.

Same deal, beastie. Idaho is not 100% LDS, so you need to know a lot of information to make any conclusions at all.

This shows that you don't understand patriarchal societies. There is a power heirarchy among men. Some men have lots more power than others do. There are many men who have almost no power at all.

Actually, I do. I wanted YOU to say it. And you did! BINGO.

Excuse me, but I said that in an earlier post, when I said the man who feels powerless rapes. And you questioned that. Twisting a little here, aren't you?

charity

And the source of this assumption, since you have no training in psychology or sociology?

You don't have to have formal training to have common sense. I know, from being LDS and reading the thoughts of many exLDS men on this issue, that young LDS men often feel deep shame due to their inability to stop masturbating. I know of one young man who attempted suicide due to the self loathing he developed over the issue. Of course, there were likely other issues involved, but this was one he reported. Likewise, a rapist is going to have other issues other than just the deep seated shame over sexual impulses, but that deep seated shame could easily become an impetus to strike out at the source of the shame.

Are you actually denying my scenario is possible?

1. Intuitive assumptions are very often wrong when we consider human psychology. That is why we do studies. To know what we are talking about.

2. Your population sample, ex-mormon men, is a biased sample. They aren't still LDS. So they can't speak for LDS men. I am glad you recognize the fact that self-reporting may not get at the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. You are making progress.

3. Rape in this society is a pretty scary thing. Apparently, only the fear of being caught keeps the rape rate from being a lot higher. There is a study that demosntrates this. Pornography is a big factor today. It wasn't a few decades back, but it is today. And that has nothing to do with a patriarchal society.

[_beastie]

Same deal, beastie. Idaho is not 100% LDS, so you need to know a lot of information to make any conclusions at all.

Oh, no doubt, the rapes are all committed by nonmormons. :O

Excuse me, but I said that in an earlier post, when I said the man who feels powerless rapes. And you questioned that. Twisting a little here, aren't you?

I didn't question it, I agreed. If you can prove otherwise, copy and paste my post. I'm sure you overlooked something to draw this conclusion, you always do. My persistent questioning about why an apparent system that bestows all the power on men would create powerlessness in men was to help you connect the dots.

1. Intuitive assumptions are very often wrong when we consider human psychology. That is why we do studies. To know what we are talking about.

2. Your population sample, ex-mormon men, is a biased sample. They aren't still LDS. So they can't speak for LDS men. I am glad you recognize the fact that self-reporting may not get at the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. You are making progress.

3. Rape in this society is a pretty scary thing. Apparently, only the fear of being caught keeps the rape rate from being a lot higher. There is a study that demosntrates this. Pornography is a big factor today. It wasn't a few decades back, but it is today. And that has nothing to do with a patriarchal society.

All these words, and still no answer to my simple question.

Is my scenario possible?

[_Imwashingmypirate]

Comparative crime rate, including rape, for 2004:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004912.html

On the plus side, Utah is 48 / 55 for violent crime total (murder, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault). I wonder if that's due to patriarchy too. ;)

No, I'm not saying that makes Utah great. Rape is one of the worst crimes I know. Robbery and aggravated assault don't hold a candle to it bad as those can be too.

I can't believe I lost my calculator. I don't get it. Utah isn't actually that bad. I thought by the way you guys were talking that it was one of the worst states, but it is not.

[_Moniker]

Moniker wrote:


The act of intercourse WITH OUT consent is rape, Charity. It has nothing to do with whether the person themselves defines it. If sexual assault occurred when there was not consent THAT is rape.

Of course, it has to do with what the woman thinks. She is the one giving or not giving consent! You can't decide for her.

Actually, Women can be raped whether they give consent or not.

That's correct. I wonder why Charity completely neglects to respond to women that are unable to consent. What of the woman in a coma Charity? She doesn't even recognize that someone has had sexual intercourse with her (I know this is an extreme example -- and yet it occurs) and yet this is still rape defined by our legal system.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massac ... a_patient/

Thank goodness common sense prevails and some people recognize that rape occurs without the woman (child, mentally impaired individual, man) labeling herself a rape victim.

Consent:
http://www.whynotask.org/questions.cfm? ... tisconsent

con·sent (kn-snt)
intr.v. con·sent·ed, con·sent·ing, con·sents
1. To give assent, as to the proposal of another; agree.
2. Archaic To be of the same mind or opinion.

Sexual assault is NOT the same as rape.

Well, it can be rape, and then again it can be any sort of touching of a sexual nature that was unwanted. Both fall under the definition of sexual assault.

http://womenscenter.virginia.edu/sdvs/a ... nition.htm

http://www.uwlax.edu/StudentLife/sa.html

It's important to understand the legal definition of sexual assault. Any sexual contact that you do not want is sexual assault. Sexual assault is any forced or coerced sexual intercourse or contact. It is a crime of violence in which assailants, whether known to the victim or not, are motivated by a desire to humiliate and have power over the victim.

Therefore whether consent was given or not it was NOT rape.

Hmm. Pirate, you believe that if a woman does not give consent (says "no") that it is not rape? Please explain this to me. Or, maybe I don't want you to? ;)

Rape is when a woman has been made to give SEXUAL INTERCOURSE against her wishes, whether she gives consent or not.

This sort of contradicts your previous statement, doesn't it?

Sexual assault is not rape unless sexual intercourse has taken place during this assault. But sexual ASSAULTS are other types of sexual acts other than sex. Women might be assaulted then raped.

That's correct. Yet, rape still fits under the definition of sexual assault in a legal sense.

[_beastie]

by the way, Charity, I will be anxious to see your studies that verify that the rate of forcible rate is lower in extreme patriarchal societies - you know, those societies where women "give consent" because they have no other choice.

I'm curious because it contradicts what I've read elsewhere, like here:

http://www.un.org/womenwatch/daw/egm/va ... Farouk.pdf

[_beastie]

I can't believe I lost my calculator. I don't get it. Utah isn't actually that bad. I thought by the way you guys were talking that it was one of the worst states, but it is not.

The figures I've seen - not just for 2003 in the OP - put Utah at higher than the national average.

[_Imwashingmypirate]

Moniker wrote:


The act of intercourse WITH OUT consent is rape, Charity. It has nothing to do with whether the person themselves defines it. If sexual assault occurred when there was not consent THAT is rape.

Of course, it has to do with what the woman thinks. She is the one giving or not giving consent! You can't decide for her.

Actually, Women can be raped whether they give consent or not.

That's correct. I wonder why Charity completely neglects to respond to women that are unable to consent. What of the woman in a coma Charity? She doesn't even recognize that someone has had sexual intercourse with her (I know this is an extreme example -- and yet it occurs) and yet this is still rape defined by our legal system.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massac ... a_patient/

Thank goodness common sense prevails and some people recognize that rape occurs without the woman (child, mentally impaired individual, man) labeling herself a rape victim.

Consent:
http://www.whynotask.org/questions.cfm? ... tisconsent

con·sent (kn-snt)
intr.v. con·sent·ed, con·sent·ing, con·sents
1. To give assent, as to the proposal of another; agree.
2. Archaic To be of the same mind or opinion.

Sexual assault is NOT the same as rape.

Well, it can be rape, and then again it can be any sort of touching of a sexual nature that was unwanted. Both fall under the definition of sexual assault.

http://womenscenter.virginia.edu/sdvs/a ... nition.htm

http://www.uwlax.edu/StudentLife/sa.html

It's important to understand the legal definition of sexual assault. Any sexual contact that you do not want is sexual assault. Sexual assault is any forced or coerced sexual intercourse or contact. It is a crime of violence in which assailants, whether known to the victim or not, are motivated by a desire to humiliate and have power over the victim.

Therefore whether consent was given or not it was NOT rape.

Hmm. Pirate, you believe that if a woman does not give consent (says "no") that it is not rape? Please explain this to me. Or, maybe I don't want you to? ;)

I think you missunderstood me here. My internet has actually crashed. You might find that odd but I am actually logged on twice. Ok I am sorta back... I said "Sexual assault is NOT the same as rape. Therefore whether consent was given or not it was NOT rape. " I was saying whether consent was given or not (to a case of) SEXUAL ASSAULT it (sexual assualt) is still NOT rape. color]

Rape is when a woman has been made to give SEXUAL INTERCOURSE against her wishes, whether she gives consent or not.

This sort of contradicts your previous statement, doesn't it?
[color=red]No because you mistook my previous statement.

Sexual assault is not rape unless sexual intercourse has taken place during this assault. But sexual ASSAULTS are other types of sexual acts other than sex. Women might be assaulted then raped.

That's correct. Yet, rape still fits under the definition of sexual assault in a legal sense.

[_Imwashingmypirate]

Dang I did it again.