Chalk Up Another MAD-Influenced Apostasy

[_beastie]

I think that the most vocal MADdites believe that these people are just exmormon trolls, anyway.

[_charity]

The problem is, Shades and others would have their boards no matter what the TBMs think. And some TBMs just can't let an argument go unanswered*. I think some, and I include in this Charity, like to think of themselves as Defenders of the Faith. I think it makes them feel good knowing they're taking one for the team, as it were. It's a dirty job, but someone's gotta do it, right?

*actually they let lots of questions go unanswered, preferring obfuscation and "answering the question we should have asked" instead.

I am surprised at the "dirty job" comment. You make it sound like I am climbing down into a pigstye to "take one for the team." And that if I were less of a "Defender" I would stay out of the mud where you all wallow. Doesn't say much for your opinion of the people who post here.

I will admit to not liking to see a claim or assertion go unresponded to. Debate training, as I said in another post on another thread.

And about questions answered or not? Of course, in the real world there will be questions which are not answered immediately. Book of Mormon New World archeology or the production of the Book of Abraham. But this does not mean there wll not be answers in the future.

A pattern of such answers in time comes, in just one example, from the Spalding claim. It was not possible to prove that the so-called Spalding manuscript was not the original and the Book of Mormon only a plargarized copy. Then the manuscript was found and the proof was there. And the only people looking silly in the debate are the ones who have suddenly manufactered the idea of a stll lost mauscript when their original story was shot down.

Well, we all know now that the MAD forum belongs to Juliann.

She once claimed that she voted to close it down (which I doubt) because it was counterproductive (which it is), but since it was part of FAIR, it was decided by the powers that be, that it should remain up. Yet, since then FAIR has distanced itself from the forum, changing its name and removing it from the website. Presumably, it still remains Juliann's baby.

So if it belongs to Juliann and if FAIR is no longer connected to it, then what could possibly be its purpose for remaining if not to serve Juliann with her sole claim to fame?

She knows it is counter-productive, but it draws attention to her whenever she makes an appearance. No matter how stupid her comments, she just shows up and her entourage of moderator support makes sure she sounds witty by suppressing any critical feedback. Dan Peterson and David Bokovoy are the only other persons I know who can count on this kind of spotlight and ego massage.

Hey, believers in the Great Flying Pretzel, look at one of his little pretzelites! Catch this logic: Juliann OWNS MAD. But she wanted to shut it down. But some higher up than the OWNER decided to keep it up despite her objetions. So now she it belongs to her, but she can't quit even though she wants to because. . . . why?

Your remarks about Peterson and Bokovoy are dripping with envy. You know, if you worked hard, produced sterling results, earned the respect of your non-LDS peers, you could enjoy their elevated status, too. Which part of the success equation is it that you are having troubling succeeding at?

[_charity]

How is it that any right-minded TBM can continue on, in good conscience, to justify participating on the MADboard when s/he knows that it harms struggling members?

I don't think they realize it harms struggling members. If the struggling members eventually leave, then it was the struggling members' own fault, since (in the TBMs' minds) they were given all the necessary answers but were too prideful and/or lazy to incorporate them.

I think it is a sad fact, that once a person has lost his/her testimony and the arguments of anti's becomes attractive, it will take lot to keep that member from falling completely away. There is always hope, of course.

People are agents unto themselves. They make the choices. No missionary converts a person. No anti-Mormon "missionary" de-converts a person. Dr. Terryl Givens had it right. There is evidence to lead to a life of belief or a life of denial. The person makes a choice based on who they are, not on the evidence. And it isn't pride or laziness. It is just a matter of who the person is.

We were all different before we came here. We had all made choices while there. Our personalities do not change from there to here.

[_Jersey Girl]

Wow. Just wow. I thought it would be interesting to look for the guilt trips in the posts that Scratch is quoting. Let's take a walk down guilt trip lane...I'll bold the guilt.

fatherofone wrote:
As most of you know I am having struggles with my faith, Last night I watched "The Testaments" the church movie about Christs ministry in Israel and to the Book of Mormon peoples. I really felt bad last night cuz I was on the side of the unbelieving, everytime the preacher guy would say something I found myself echoing what the anti dude in the film was saying, that it is not reasonable there is a being such as Christ. I think I am in real bad shape if I am thinking that, I have tried a bit of prayer, all be it not much, and have been reading scripture assignments with my wife. Not much effort I know, but it is some. Our bishop wanted to meet with my wife and I, and I have been doing everything in my power to avoid him. Have I travelled to far down the path of apostacy to return if I am thinking it is not reasonable for Christ to exist.


Many thanks

Curt

ann wrote:
I think you need to stop listening to anti stuff. get as far away from the fence as you can, and then pray and fast and pay your tithing and talk to your bishop. There is nothing that we can say to change you, you have to do that on your own and it takes one small step at a time.

That's right, fatherofone. Faith comes with a price tag of 10% of your gross income. Haven't you been paying attention? You wouldn't be in this spot if you weren't listening to anti stuff. How many times have we told you not to think? Talk to the Bishop. It's your own fault and he'll tell you so.

Kate wrote:
What you should do is question yourself as to what you think is in it for you to pull out of the believing mode. Will it be easier? Will you not need to be accountable for things anymore? Will you be able to do whatever you want without feeling worried? What about your wife and child. It's easy to be selfish and only think of ourselves, but the choices you make will change their lives as well.
Maybe you need to look into yourself and see if there is not something needing repentence of. A lot of times, it's much easier to run from it, then to face it and wipe it out. The fact is, if you do the things to bring the spirit back to you, the anti stuff will have no affect on you...simple as that. The spirit fills you with pure knowledge if you let it and the anti stuff is just silliness.
Another thing. I would leave this site if you are worried that it is too late....I'm sure it's not helping you to be here. (emphasis added)

Run, fatherofone, run for you life! No, make that run for your wife and child's life. And please stop that annonying thinking!

Hammer wrote:
Of course it is your choice to feed it. [I.e., the seed of apostasy] Nurture it. Pamper it as a tease and jab at your family. It would come first in your life before your wife and little girl, as it has this last year as we have watched you post here.

What what do you say? Let it live and destroy your family? Allow it to suck the joy out of your wife's life? Your choice.

See, fatherofone? You're teasing and jabbing your own family into joyless destruction! Thinking is dangerous! Please stay away from your own brain.

Hammer wrote:
Have you considered being evaluated for drugs that could help with depression? Do you have other medical issues?

You haven't lost faith, fatherofone, you've lost your mind! Get drugs. Get 'em quick!

lynnr wrote:
usgt a few rambling thoughts.

First, your fate is not sealed. Why do I say that. Only those concerned about their fate have reason not to be. One of the best evidences you're still in His hands is that you still care. Those who have left God and who have gone too far never care about such matters. It's obvious: you still care! That's evidence His grace is still at work in your heart. I'm saying--an apostate is never concerned about apostasy. That's its deadliness.

Second, you must remember: [you're the sheep and He's the Shepherd. It never varies--the Shepherd seeks the sheep; not the sheep, the shepherd. Your destiny and security is in the hands of the Good Shepherd. Not yours. And he ALWAYS (I mean--always) leaves the 99 and goes after the one struggling. Don't you know He sees your struggling. I'm saying--you may not be able to trust your faithfulness to Him, but you can always trust His faithfulness to you. In our unfaithfulness He is faithful. His faithfulness, not ours, is our anchor.

fatherofone, you can't even trust your own mind! How many times do we have to tell you that you care! Please get back in the herd, shut your brain down and just follow. If that doesn't help, just remember the 3 F's

Follow
Faith
and if all else fails...

Fake it!


Jersey Girl: What a loving show of support. Not.

[_Blixa]

We were all different before we came here.

Don't you mean we were all the same, and not different, before we came here? If not, then I don't see how this follows:

Our personalities do not change from there to here.

I also don't understand this part:

We had all made choices while there. Our personalities do not change from there to here.

Then why am I here? Given the "war in heaven" scenario Mormonism presupposes, and given the idea of god and what it takes to please that cruel bureaucrat and petty master of secret handshakes, I would vote to go with Satan. Thus, since I'm the same "personality" now that I was then, then...why did I get "sent down?"

Non serviam, then and now.

[_charity]

We were all different before we came here.

Don't you mean we were all the same, and not different, before we came here? If not, then I don't see how this follows:

We all had our own personalities. Some had learned more than others. Some were more obedient than others. There were noble and great ones. That means there were others who weren't as noble or as great. On the same team, but second stringers, maybe.

I also don't understand this part:

We had all made choices while there. Our personalities do not change from there to here.

Then why am I here? Given the "war in heaven" scenario Mormonism presupposes, and given the idea of god and what it takes to please that cruel bureaucrat and petty master of secret handshakes, I would vote to go with Satan. Thus, since I'm the same "personality" now that I was then, then...why did I get "sent down?"

Non serviam, then and now.

When you had all knowledge, you made a choice based on that. At that point, you understood who God was. When you are put to the test without that knowledge, you are makkng different choices. At least now. Sort of like the people who drive the speed limit when there are cops around, but speed if they think they won't get caught.

Problem is, while you may get away with speeding, God knows everything. And you will be judged on what you do when you think no one else is looking.

[_harmony]

I think that the most vocal MADdites believe that these people are just exmormon trolls, anyway.

Nonetheless, there is never any excuse for being rude to anyone.

[_charity]

I think that the most vocal MADdites believe that these people are just exmormon trolls, anyway.

Nonetheless, there is never any excuse for being rude to anyone.

You are right.

[_the road to hana]

I think that the most vocal MADdites believe that these people are just exmormon trolls, anyway.

Nonetheless, there is never any excuse for being rude to anyone.

You are right.

Really, the only appropriate response to someone like fatherofone is sympathetic, if not empathetic.

[_harmony]

Hey, believers in the Great Flying Pretzel, look at one of his little pretzelites! Catch this logic: Juliann OWNS MAD.

Yes. Now. But Juliann did not own FAIR, which is when this famous vote was taken.

But she wanted to shut it down.

The vote was about FAIR, not MAD.

But some higher up than the OWNER decided to keep it up despite her objetions(sic).

That would be Scott, yes.

So now she it belongs to her, ...

MAD belongs to her; FAIR does not and never will.

...but she can't quit even though she wants to because. . . . why?

Juliann does exactly what Juliann wants to do. As do all of us.]

Your remarks about Peterson and Bokovoy are dripping with envy. You know, if you worked hard, produced sterling results, earned the respect of your non-LDS peers, you could enjoy their elevated status, too. Which part of the success equation is it that you are having troubling succeeding at?

Since none of us know anything about Scratch, this is completely out of left field. For all you know, Scratch is Peterson's boss.