Chalk Up Another MAD-Influenced Apostasy

[_Yoda]

Finally, here is one other very interesting post from lynnr:

lynnr wrote:
a few rambling thoughts.

First, your fate is not sealed. Why do I say that. Only those concerned about their fate have reason not to be. One of the best evidences you're still in His hands is that you still care. Those who have left God and who have gone too far never care about such matters. It's obvious: you still care! That's evidence His grace is still at work in your heart. I'm saying--an apostate is never concerned about apostasy. That's its deadliness.

Second, you must remember: you're the sheep and He's the Shepherd. It never varies--the Shepherd seeks the sheep; not the sheep, the shepherd. Your destiny and security is in the hands of the Good Shepherd. Not yours. And he ALWAYS (I mean--always) leaves the 99 and goes after the one struggling. Don't you know He sees your struggling. I'm saying--you may not be able to trust your faithfulness to Him, but you can always trust His faithfulness to you. In our unfaithfulness He is faithful. His faithfulness, not ours, is our anchor.

(emphasis added)

Is it just me, or is this very confusing? On the one hand, she says that his fate "is not sealed," and on the other, she says that he, in essence, has no control over his destiny, and that he is merely a "sheep".... Hmmm.....

That's not how I interpreted Lynnr's advice at all. I think that what Lynnyr is trying to say is that Curtis is not a "lost cause". He still cares about his future so his heart has not been hardened Therefore, even though he's confused, there is still hope for him. His comparison to the sheep and the shepherd is in reference to Christ being the Shepherd to us all. He is saying that if Curtis opens up his heart to Christ that Christ is more than willing to "leave the 99 for the lost lamb".

He is not stating that Curtis is a sheep in the sense that he has no control over his destiny. He is saying that Curtis is the sheep in comparison to Christ being the Shepherd.

[_Yoda]

Just in further comment...it's interesting that it looks like some of the best advice this poor soul who was struggling with the Mormon faith received was from a Baptist minister.

;)

[_Ray A]

Oh but they are all brilliant men, right? Gee is brilliant, even though he cannot fork up the decency to be honest in his apologetics. Dan Peterson is "brilliant" even though he lets ignorant fools like me refute him on issues in which he is supposed to be the expert (Islam).

Kevin, I agree with you on some things, but can you tell me how you're an expert on Islam? I mean that honestly. Did you live in Islamic countries? I think you mentioned you once did? On another point, do you have an understanding of classical Islam, as DCP does?

[_charity]

I think it is a sad fact, that once a person has lost his/her testimony and the arguments of anti's becomes attractive, it will take lot to keep that member from falling completely away.

Do you ever wonder why they lose their testimony? Or wonder why the argument is attractive? Truth and knowledge has a funny way of doing that to people.

Knowledge is often only half-truth. That can make it appear to be something that it isn't. And people can be fooled. People who know the truth don't leave the Church. People who know only some fact and a lot of half-truths do.

People are agents unto themselves. They make the choices. No missionary converts a person. No anti-Mormon "missionary" de-converts a person. Dr. Terryl Givens had it right. There is evidence to lead to a life of belief or a life of denial.

There is absolutely no objectivity in this statement, if the statement was a life of belief or a life of unbelief, the statement might have a little objectivity to it.

I don't see the difference between denial and unbelief. Unless you see something in there that says the person really deep down believes, but wouldn't let the belief out.

The person makes a choice based on who they are, not on the evidence. And it isn't pride or laziness. It is just a matter of who the person is.

You often claim it is pride and laziness. Charity, this is just more of your self-righteousness and holier than thou statements.

I think the life after this is meant for us all to be happy. In terms of what the differences are, the different kingdoms shouldn't be ranked as good, better and best. They just are. Some people want what the telestial kingdom has to offer. Some want what the terrestrial kingdom will be like. Some want the celestial life. We will get the kind of life we we want.
And that doesn't make some good, and some better, and some best. It just is.

We were all different before we came here. We had all made choices while there. Our personalities do not change from there to here.

So no one can change, no one converts, no one betters one's self? So the church should give up according to you. Why try or do anything? Sorry I think people change.

People's personalities don't change. Their habits and behaviors do. So there can be improvement. The purpose of the Church is to help people live happier lives here, too. So there is a reason to bring the truth to people. Wickedness never was happiness, after all.

[_charity]

Just in further comment...it's interesting that it looks like some of the best advice this poor soul who was struggling with the Mormon faith received was from a Baptist minister.

;)

A Mormon Baptist minister.

[_dartagnan]

I'm not an expert. In fact, I believe I described myself as an ignorant fool, just to get that out of the way before people like charity and others try to beat that straw man.

But I am sure it is worse for DCP's reputation when he lets an ignorant fool (as opposed to other experts in the field who agree) correct his false statements about the subject of his passion.

[_Yoda]

Something that occurs to me: How is it that any right-minded TBM can continue on, in good conscience, to justify participating on the MADboard when s/he knows that it harms struggling members? Do they figure that "it's the thought that counts"? Or do they imagine themselves receiving some kind of "spiritual brownie points" for being defenders?

Not all Mormon posters are of the Pahoran/Hammer type. Some give caring and sensitive answers that can help those who are stuggling.
I think the problem is too may get caught up in an adversarial attitude and cannot stop themselves from framing what is being said in an Us versus Them context.

Wise words from the Penguin! This is signature-worthy!

:)

[_Ray A]

But I am sure it is worse for DCP's reputation when he lets an ignorant fool (as opposed to other experts in the field who agree) correct his false statements about the subject of his passion.

Did you read (or listen to) DCP's lectures on Islam, at various universities, when he was in Australia? If so, what do you think of them?

[_charity]

I'm not an expert. In fact, I believe I described myself as an ignorant fool, just to get that out of the way before people like charity and others try to beat that straw man.

But I am sure it is worse for DCP's reputation when he lets an ignorant fool (as opposed to other experts in the field who agree) correct his false statements about the subject of his passion.

Kevin, I started posting on the FAIR board not long before you had broken the camel's back. Your diatribes against Islam were embarrassing. As I recall you were called for confusing extremist Muslims with the religion of Islam.

[_Yoda]

Just in further comment...it's interesting that it looks like some of the best advice this poor soul who was struggling with the Mormon faith received was from a Baptist minister.

;)

A Mormon Baptist minister.

That's a definite conflict in terminology.

;)