BIC children who stray.

[_Inconceivable]

I began a thread in the Celestial Forum several months back that reference this topic from a slightly different angle:
________
Sure, Faithful Parents Save Wayward Children.. no problem.

Here is the third party doctrinal quote currently accepted as scripture:

I believe and accept the comforting statement of Elder Orson F. Whitney:

“The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and he never taught more comforting doctrine—that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God.”

(Jas. Faust - Conference April 6, 2003)

This has brought much comfort and hope to many LDS families struggling with children of rebellion, addiction and sinfulness of every description.

My mother had quoted this often to me over the years referring to my 3 other siblings, step brother, ex brother in law etc. Now she quotes it in reference to me. This doctrine has given her the warm blanket she needs to keep her from literally dying of a broken heart. She cries less tears of despair and more of joy because of it.

Hey?!

What a strange place this afterlife will be to discover Lehi and Sariah with all of their children, curse lifted from Laman and Lemuel - heirs to the kingdom.

Jacob's son's.. the original wild bunch.

Did Judas have righteous parents? Maybe not. Regardless, it would still have to suck to be him.

Then again, I thought this scripture meant something quite absolute:

32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of
this life is the day for men to perform their labors.
33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of
you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life,
which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then
cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.
34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God.
Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of
this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have
become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord
hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the
final state of the wicked.

(Book of Mormon | Alma 34:32 - 35)

..or is this and the miriad of other verses only refering to those without righteous parents?

Link to the thread:

http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/vi ... 5680#35680

[_Trinity]

I often wondered about fate of personal accountability when I was reading about Joseph and his promises for exaltation to women and their entire bloodlines simply by marrying him. Killed someone? Who cares? Your grandma is Helen Mar Kimball so you are free to sidle right up to the CK without having to pass Go.

Regarding Faust:

tentacles of Divine Providence

Is he talking about God or the flying spaghetti monster? That is just plain weird language to be using.

[_truth dancer]

Let's be clear. It isn't sin that precedes the loss of testimony. The loss of testimony precedes sin. The man who has a testimony of celestial marriage isn't gonig to cheat on his wife. He loses the testimony, he cheats.

This is one of the most odd things I have read on the board.

First, of COURSE there are men and women who have a testimony of celestial marriage who cheat on their spouses, and obviously there is a world filled with those who do NOT believe in "celestial marriage" who do NOT cheat on their spouses.

Charity... your statement, that a man loses his testimony, then cheats is REALLY nonsensical.

What does often happen, from my observation is that folks no longer believe the truth claims of the LDS church and realize that there is no real harm in, say, drinking tea or going out for Sunday brunch, or perhaps they decide to donate money to a worthy charity rather than the LDS church. Nomal, healthy behavior that once seemed sinful enough to keep one out of heaven becomes normalized.

The idea that those with an LDS testimony are somehow better, more righteous, and less "sinful" than others is really rather ridiculous.

:-(


~dancer~

[_karl61]

this is why people go crazy in the Church - the messages are so mixed from one sunday school to the next from one elders quourm meeting to the next - there is really no foundation of what they believe. Certainly honoring, obeying and sustaining the law was the last thing on the minds of the early Church leaders.

[_Runtu]

A relative of ours is a well known authority in the church and has several rebellious children, which I'm sure would surprise many who don't know him personally.

You reminded me of someone I knew in college. She was the daughter of a GA (one who has had a Disney film made about his mission) and was quite openly "rebellious." Her parents pressured her to go to BYU because they thought it would straighten her out. Didn't seem to have much effect. She was a good person, and I liked her a lot.

Several years later, I was working at the COB and met her father. He was quite pleasant until I mentioned that I had known his daughter in college. He suddenly went silent and walked away.

We were taught that, if we were faithful, our wayward children would eventually come around. That is not the case, apparently.

[_karl61]

Let's be clear. It isn't sin that precedes the loss of testimony. The loss of testimony precedes sin. The man who has a testimony of celestial marriage isn't gonig to cheat on his wife. He loses the testimony, he cheats.

This is one of the most odd things I have read on the board.

First, of COURSE there are men and women who have a testimony of celestial marriage who cheat on their spouses, and obviously there is a world filled with those who do NOT believe in "celestial marriage" who do NOT cheat on their spouses.

Charity... your statement, that a man loses his testimony, then cheats is REALLY nonsensical.

What does often happen, from my observation is that folks no longer believe the truth claims of the LDS church and realize that there is no real harm in, say, drinking tea or going out for Sunday brunch, or perhaps they decide to donate money to a worthy charity rather than the LDS church. Nomal, healthy behavior that once seemed sinful enough to keep one out of heaven becomes normalized.

The idea that those with an LDS testimony are somehow better, more righteous, and less "sinful" than others is really rather ridiculous.

:-(


~dancer~

if you are a non member and don't believe or have investigated after being baptized as a child and don't believe - now you are more likely to choose adultery than being faithful.

[_Runtu]

Let's be clear. It isn't sin that precedes the loss of testimony. The loss of testimony precedes sin. The man who has a testimony of celestial marriage isn't gonig to cheat on his wife. He loses the testimony, he cheats.

This is nonsensical. If it were true, people with testimonies would be impervious to temptation, and you and I both know that's not the case. People with testimonies sin all the time. As my mission president once put it, "We sin because we like it." Blaming it on loss of testimony is absurd.

[_Trinity]

Let's be clear. It isn't sin that precedes the loss of testimony. The loss of testimony precedes sin. The man who has a testimony of celestial marriage isn't gonig to cheat on his wife. He loses the testimony, he cheats.

This is one of the most odd things I have read on the board.

First, of COURSE there are men and women who have a testimony of celestial marriage who cheat on their spouses, and obviously there is a world filled with those who do NOT believe in "celestial marriage" who do NOT cheat on their spouses.

Charity... your statement, that a man loses his testimony, then cheats is REALLY nonsensical.

What does often happen, from my observation is that folks no longer believe the truth claims of the LDS church and realize that there is no real harm in, say, drinking tea or going out for Sunday brunch, or perhaps they decide to donate money to a worthy charity rather than the LDS church. Nomal, healthy behavior that once seemed sinful enough to keep one out of heaven becomes normalized.

The idea that those with an LDS testimony are somehow better, more righteous, and less "sinful" than others is really rather ridiculous.

:-(


~dancer~

It actually doesn't surprise me at all that Charity would think that. Charity has high ideals of what belief is. She protects it, and would rather prefer to think someone has not had a testimony at all when they sin than the person who breaches the integrity of that belief by sullying it.

Taken to its extreme, Charity has just limited the flock of believers to one----the spotless, unsinning Jesus.

I think I understand this because I have been guilty, on occasion, of not accepting an apology from my spouse by telling him "if you were sorry, you wouldn't have done it in the first place." I figure if he fully understood the ramifications of what he was doing, it would have prevented him from doing it at all. The only other option was that he did not fully understand...and in Charity's terms that means they were not in a full, complete belief when they sinned.

I know. I'm a meanie. I won't apologize for it because I fully understand the ramifications of what I say when I say them. ;)

[_ozemc]

Well, I tried to follow this, and I can only assume that "BIC" children are those that grow up in the church and go astray.

Tell me, please, what does the acronym "BIC" stand for?

[_Runtu]

Well, I tried to follow this, and I can only assume that "BIC" children are those that grow up in the church and go astray.

Tell me, please, what does the acronym "BIC" stand for?

BIC= Born In the Covenant, or born to parents who have been sealed in the temple.