Islam: for Ray

[_dartagnan]

With all due respect Guy, you're ignoring my point. I ask you when has Christianity "ever" set down a principle to kill all unbelievers. It is a simpel question. They never did, even in the dark ages. I mean, if the times weren't ripe enough then for such a doctrine and practice to take place, then what makes you think it could ever resonate with Christians today? If you cannot provide an example, then this alone is evidence that pious Christians are not "just as likely" to commit murder.

You're doing the usual atheistic shotgun approach to all religion, which is to be expected I suppose.

[_dartagnan]

I define a moderate Muslim no different than I do a moderate Christian, or a moderate Jew.

Sorry, but this doesn't help me understand your view. Daniel Pipes has noted how difficult it is to define what moderate Islam is, and even harder to pin-point who these would be moderates actually are. You can't just say, OK, Muslim Z doesn't believe he has the right to end my life, therefore he is a moderate. Does he believe women should have equal rights, contrary to the Quran? Probably not.

Remember the Imam in Iraq that everyone was hoping would be instrumental in stopping the insurgents. He was immediately considered a moderate. And then we learn later that he refuses tos hake hands with non-Muslims because according to his interpretation of Islam, infidels are one of the seven "filthy" things that should not be touched, just above feces and semen. Of course, this is not really all that uncommon, since it is grounded in sharia law. This is why I always ask a Muslim what they think of sharia. Sunni Islam is usually bound to it, and this represents 80% of global Islam. Here is a great article about this:

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCommentary.a ... 1125a.html

I lived among the Irish for a year, and was exposed to the political propaganda of the IRA, and even invited to join them, which I declined naturally. This occurred at a Christian seminar organised by my Christian high school. I saw and observed how extremists work firsthand. They use "Christian propaganda", and selected verses from the Bible.

Uh huh, but the Catholic Church did not support the violence.

Whetever you may think, Kevin, their purposes were political, and they were Christians.

Well who ever said Christians cannot act politically? What I said is that Christianity is not inherently political. Islam is inherently political. Taking over non-Muslims by force, setting up shop and establishing a ruling theocracy is what Islam is really designed to do. The fringies are only doing what Islam teaches. There is nothing in Christianity to support terrorist acts commited by anyone, Muslim or Christian.

This is the "other side" of Christianity.

No it isn't as evidenced by the fact that when Christians act this way, the entire Christian world protests their actions. Whereas when Muslims act this way, the Muslim world applauds them. Osama bin Ladin is consdered a hero in countries that aren't generally considered radical or extremists, like Pakistan.

This Paisley fellow abused his position and would be rebuked by virtually every Christian denomination on the planet, including his own. He clearly considered himself an Irishman before a Christian.

This is exactly what I see moderate Muslims doing.

That is because relativism is an easy way to approach this. It pretends to explain things but all it does really is offer quick and simple answer to a more complex issue.

They do not abide by all the Quran.

Yes they do. Who knows the Quran best, you or them?

I have read the Quran by the way, but a long time ago, and I once pointed out, in a letter to the local paper, verses in the Quran which "exposed" this religion for what it really is

If you have not read the Quran alongside authoritative Islamic commentary, which is based on the traditions, then you never really understood the Quran at all.

There is no reason to respond to your various anecdotes with Muslims. I have never doubted that Muslims can be honorable and even peaceful. What I have always maintaied is that you cannot judge the peaceful quality of a Muslim, or anything for that matter, based on their absence from violent activity. Many Muslims support the violence, whether they themselves choose to become jihadists or not.

In any event, the more you try to use Catholic members of the Irish Republican Army as a primer for understanding Islam, the more you're going to misunderstand what I'm talkinga bout, along with what real Islam is.

[_Ray A]

In any event, the more you try to use Catholic members of the Irish Republican Army as a primer for understanding Islam, the more you're going to misunderstand what I'm talkinga bout, along with what real Islam is.

I wasn't using the IRA as a primer to understanding Islam, but understanding the wider nature of extremism.

Kevin, you seem to be doing some projecting here: Do you really know that all Muslims literally believe, and literally live the Quran? How do you know this? Especially since it contradicts what many Muslims have personally told me? I'm afraid I think you're doing some wishful thinking here.

Let me just make one other point for now, from Pipes article:

- Modernity : Should Muslim women have equal rights with men (for example, in inheritance shares or court testimony)

I will confirm this again from my Muslim friends, but they have told me that if a man divorces his wife, he has to pay her $50,000 for upkeep. I will confirm whether this is correct or not, or whether it only applies to a broken engagement. I have a Muslim workmate who went to Mecca recently, and when he returns I will be putting many more questions to him, including his views on the Quran, because I know he is very devoted. I prefer to hear this directly from them. I will also ask his views on other points you raise. I'm not only doing this to one Muslim, 80% of my co-workers are Muslims, and I'd like to weigh their views in much more detail, spurred by this thread, among practising and non-practising Muslims. I know this could bring some scorn from you, perhaps (not very "academic"), but I prefer to get comments from the horse's mouth, so to speak. Sort of like asking Mormons, and even ex-Mormons, what Mormons believe.

I can't reply to your other points now, as I have some real (domestic) work to do.

[_dartagnan]

Kevin, you seem to be doing some projecting here: Do you really know that all Muslims literally believe, and literally live the Quran? How do you know this?

I never claimed all Muslims do. Nor I don't believe they do. I have said that most Muslims can't even read the Quran.

Especially since it contradicts what many Muslims have personally told me? I'm afraid I think you're doing some wishful thinking here.

I'm afraid you lost me.

I will confirm this again from my Muslim friends, but they have told me that if a man divorces his wife, he has to pay her $50,000 for upkeep.

Did you know that Muslims can legally divorce their wives without cause? All they have to do is say, "I divorce you," and it is a done deal. In this day and age of equal rights and expected tolerance, do you think anyone who believes this sort of thing should be considered "moderate"?

I will confirm whether this is correct or not, or whether it only applies to a broken engagement. I have a Muslim workmate who went to Mecca recently, and when he returns I will be putting many more questions to him, including his views on the Quran, because I know he is very devoted.

Most Muslims are devoted.

I prefer to hear this directly from them.

I prefer to research it myself. I have had too many Muslims give me double-talk, the same way Dan Peterson does. While you are at it, ask him if he believes the Holocaust was a hoax. Ask him what the punishment should be for leaving Islam. And ask him if it should be allowed that a Christian, Jew or atheist, testify against a Muslim. In Islamic law, this is not permitted.

You see Ray, this is why it is important to learn what Islamic law is. Taking your own survey is silly and irrelevant. If you take your survey and people say they disagree with these things, then all this proves is that they are not mainstream. There is Sunni as well as Shia jurisprudence that is generally accepted and binding on all who fall in that category.

I know this could bring some scorn from you, perhaps (not very "academic"), but I prefer to get comments from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

Hey, whatever works for you. Expect no scorn from my end. I'm just saying there are more accurate ways to determine mainstream Islam."Moderate" is such a relevant term anyway, so I see little use in applying it.

[Guest]

With all due respect Guy, you're ignoring my point. I ask you when has Christianity "ever" set down a principle to kill all unbelievers. It is a simpel question. They never did, even in the dark ages. I mean, if the times weren't ripe enough then for such a doctrine and practice to take place, then what makes you think it could ever resonate with Christians today? If you cannot provide an example, then this alone is evidence that pious Christians are not "just as likely" to commit murder.

You're doing the usual atheistic shotgun approach to all religion, which is to be expected I suppose.

Whoa there big fella; with all due respect, you're ignoring MY point, which is that, historically, I see no evidence suggesting that either Islam or Christianity is more inclined to respect anything along the lines of human rights or civil liberties.

As to your point, I think it to a large extent irrelevant. Whether it has been a formal principle "set down" to kill all unbelievers, the effect has, in practice, been largely the same, although current times may provide an exception, though there is no guarantee that this will hold in the future. Lacking such a formal principle has not prevented Christianity through the ages of commiting no end of murder, torture, mayhem, etc. To me it's like arguing that the Group x, which has, say, killed 1,000 people, is worse than Group Y, which has killed an approximate amount, simply because Group X's bylaws advocate killing and Group Y's do not. This subtle distinction is, I'm sure, lost to those who have suffered at Group Y's hands.

That said, I do think that in the current context, the distinction is important and certainly worth noting. Historically, however, I do not see that it has made that big of a difference.

I am not taking a shotgun approach to all religion but am incorporating well-documented histories of moral outrages committed by devout believers of both Christianity and Islam. I hardly see that holding them accountable for their well-documented atrocities and ill-liberal tendencies constitutes the "usual atheistic approach to all religion."

[_Imwashingmypirate]

I lived in Muslim central. Most of my friends are Muslim and they are great people. However I was once sort of threatened. Not entirely seriously I hope. I was talking to a friend about Jihad. He is not Muslim and so he asked this other person, and the other person quite openly admitted that he agrees with Jihad. He told me that if he asks me three times to convert to Islam and three times I say no, he has the right to kill me. Even in this country. I was scared. Wow. Quite shocking really. I had worked with this person for a few years. I guess you don't know people the way you thought, Heh. I just hope he never askes me to convert.

Pirate.

[_Ray A]

I never claimed all Muslims do. Nor I don't believe they do. I have said that most Muslims can't even read the Quran.

If most Muslims can't read the Quran, then how can most abide by it?:

Me: "They do not abide by all the Quran."

You: "Yes they do. Who knows the Quran best, you or them?"

Did you know that Muslims can legally divorce their wives without cause? All they have to do is say, "I divorce you," and it is a done deal. In this day and age of equal rights and expected tolerance, do you think anyone who believes this sort of thing should be considered "moderate"?

I am aware of this, but I'm unsure how they work their way around Australian law. That is what I want to find out as well.

Is a Christian who believes in eternal hell a moderate? More importantly, was Jesus a moderate? Can there be such a thing as a "moderate Christian"?

You see Ray, this is why it is important to learn what Islamic law is. Taking your own survey is silly and irrelevant. If you take your survey and people say they disagree with these things, then all this proves is that they are not mainstream. There is Sunni as well as Shia jurisprudence that is generally accepted and binding on all who fall in that category.

I don't take the opinion of one, or two, or even ten as "gospel", any more than I'd take the opinions of a few Mormons or exmos. When I worked in Sydney's west I also talked to not a few Muslims there. Yea, verily, I am not well informed about Islamic laws, certainly not as well as you are, but I'm also wondering how well informed Muslims are themselves? If most of them can't even read the Quran, what will they know about jurisprudence? Sounds like we're talking on two levels here Kevin. You're looking at the legal and theological aspects of Islam, and particularly what extremists say, but I'm gleaning opinions from common Muslims, or maybe "Molly Muslims"?

Hey, whatever works for you. Expect no scorn from my end. I'm just saying there are more accurate ways to determine mainstream Islam."Moderate" is such a relevant term anyway, so I see little use in applying it.

Do you mean "relativistic"? Again, I'd like to see how you apply "moderate" to Christians?

[_dartagnan]

If most Muslims can't read the Quran, then how can most abide by it?:

Me: "They do not abide by all the Quran."

You: "Yes they do. Who knows the Quran best, you or them?"

When you said they do not abide by the Quran, I thought you were referring only to the extremists. But you are saying you were referring to most Muslims?

I am aware of this, but I'm unsure how they work their way around Australian law. That is what I want to find out as well.

Well, this brings up another issue. Wherever Muslims gather in enclaves, they have a tendency to seek special privileges, such as allowing their religious courts to handl family affairs instead of the government courts. This nearly became a reality in Canada, until it became known what exactly this would entail for Muslim women. The most interesting thing about that scenario was that the muslim women were the ones who protested the most. They knew precisely what it would have meant for them. By Islamic law, a woman's testimony is not equal to that of a Muslim man's.

Now try finding me a Muslim who disagrees with that, and maybe you have found yourself a legitimate "moderate."

Is a Christian who believes in eternal hell a moderate?

This makes no sense as the term is never applied to Christians. The descriptions seems to have been invented for the sole purpose of trying to distance Muslim extremists from the rest of teh pack. So if you or anyone else wants to keep using it, then you have to at least lay down the definition for it, or else it is meaningless.

Can there be such a thing as a "moderate Christian"?

I don't think there is a need to apply this to Christians.

Yea, verily, I am not well informed about Islamic laws, certainly not as well as you are, but I'm also wondering how well informed Muslims are themselves? If most of them can't even read the Quran, what will they know about jurisprudence?

Well that is where the Muslim cleric comes into play. It is his job to inform the laymen what the Quran says, via the lens of the ahadith.

Sounds like we're talking on two levels here Kevin. You're looking at the legal and theological aspects of Islam, and particularly what extremists say, but I'm gleaning opinions from common Muslims, or maybe "Molly Muslims"?

I don't think they are Molly. Do your survey first and get back to us with the results. I think you'd be surprised to find out just how many of these Muslims believe you should die if you leave the faith, that Islamic rule should take over every aspect of every society, that women are inferior, etc. Just because they come across as genuinely nice people, doesn't mean they do not genuinely believe many aspects of Islam that are antithetical to todays' socities.

[_Ray A]

I don't think they are Molly. Do your survey first and get back to us with the results. I think you'd be surprised to find out just how many of these Muslims believe you should die if you leave the faith, that Islamic rule should take over every aspect of every society, that women are inferior, etc. Just because they come across as genuinely nice people, doesn't mean they do not genuinely believe many aspects of Islam that are antithetical to todays' socities.

I will keep an open mind on this. I'm not making these inquiries to prove you wrong, only to find the truth, which is why I want to speak to my workmate who recently went to Mecca. If he's keen enough to go to Mecca, then maybe he does hold views of which I'm unaware. I will get back with the results.

They do come across as genuinely nice people, but I'm not naïve. I've met Christians who were terribly nice and gentle, who told me I'm on my way to hell to burn forever. LOL.

I have some other points to raise and will cover them in my next post.

[_Ray A]

Uh huh, but the Catholic Church did not support the violence.

The Church could have done a lot more to condemn IRA violence. (Paisley is a Protestant, not a Catholic, by the way.) We could also go back to how the Church turned a blind eye to Mussolini. It was Jehovah's Witnesses, not Mormons or Catholics, who went to the death camps.

Your statement here, Kevin, seems almost naïve, certainly defensive of the Church. While the Church may not have "officially" supported the violence, perhaps they were sympathetic to it, like Muslims were to bin Laden? I'm not averse to this distinction, but it should be consistent. Maybe most Muslims sympathetic to bin Laden (like Mundine) would not "officially" support it (and you can read Mundine's equivocation on this point in the interview).

On another related matter, why is there such an impetus to implicate the LDS Church (as an entire body) in Mountain Meadows? Remember, I attended a Church-sponsored seminar where we were actively encouraged to join the IRA. The Brethren did nothing to stop this. So can we implicate all Catholics? Or Catholicism as a religion?