BIC children who stray.

[_truth dancer]

Hi TSG.... :-)

In a way - you can't blame Charity - her thought process is the norm in the Church.

I'm not sure about this... It could be, but I get a sense that more and more LDS folks are starting to let go of some of the "us vs. them/we are better than everyone/I'm more special than you/I'm so righteous," ideas.

In fact, I think even GBH and some of the GAs are less vocal about this sort of eliticism than many past leaders. Of course the belief is still there but I think they are trying to soften it a bit?

To be honest I think some of the Brethren would be ashamed at this sort of repugnant behavior by members. I have the sense the GBH would shudder if he knew believing members asserted such prideful ideas... these "true believers," are very poor representatives for the LDS church, not to mention disciples of Christ.

I think Charity does not reflect the norm but a fringe group of more fundamentalist believers.

I get the impression the church is making a concerted effort to downplay the eliticism. Maybe it takes a while for the ideas to trickle down? ;-)

Or maybe I am altogether off base on this observation? LOL!

:-)

~dancer~

[_BishopRic]

Hi TSG.... :-)

In a way - you can't blame Charity - her thought process is the norm in the Church.

I'm not sure about this... It could be, but I get a sense that more and more LDS folks are starting to let go of some of the "us vs. them/we are better than everyone/I'm more special than you/I'm so righteous," ideas.

In fact, I think even GBH and some of the GAs are less vocal about this sort of eliticism than many past leaders. Of course the belief is still there but I think they are trying to soften it a bit?

To be honest I think some of the Brethren would be ashamed at this sort of repugnant behavior by members. I have the sense the GBH would shudder if he knew believing members asserted such prideful ideas... these "true believers," are very poor representatives for the LDS church, not to mention disciples of Christ.

I think Charity does not reflect the norm but a fringe group of more fundamentalist believers.

I get the impression the church is making a concerted effort to downplay the eliticism. Maybe it takes a while for the ideas to trickle down? ;-)

Or maybe I am altogether off base on this observation? LOL!

:-)

~dancer~

I think you're right -- but it is generation dependent. I think the church uses the "boil the frog slowly" principle...make small changes that don't seem contradictory, let it simmer a while, then push it a bit further until it completely opposes the original teaching, but the members didn't even notice. The latest being the "among the," versus the "principle" ancestors transition.

[_Jason Bourne]

Righteousness is measured by how well you are living up to the truth you have. LDS are required to live to a higher standard in order to be "righteous " because they have more truth. But in general, yes, those with a testimony are more righteous, less sinful than the average. And it doesn't take much to beat the "average." But that is a topic deserving of its own thread.

And people wonder why some members no longer embrace Mormonism; why so many people find Mormonism offensive and obnoxious.

(sigh)

~dancer~


For Charity... just to clarify for you, my comment speaks to the over-the-top arrogance and eliticism you so exemplify. For some of us here, this sort of nonsense never seemed so holy.

WOW!!!! Well let me tell you all, and Charity as well......there are a heck of a lot of members who you think by looking at their outward acts of righteousness-temple attendance, paying tithes, grooming, saying testimonies, even having a pretty good testimony... that are really doing a lot of sin and making lots of mistakes. What does that make them???? Human! But they have issues and guess what Charity...they ain't really all that much holier then the next guy. I know because I spent hours with members in counseling when I held a calling to do just that. Mormons have all sorts of problems

by the way, can you clarify your "If the parents are faithful the wayward child will return" Are you referring to this life or Orson Whitney's famous wuote that they will come back in this life or the next because the sealing power will draw them.

[_Blixa]

Righteousness is measured by how well you are living up to the truth you have. LDS are required to live to a higher standard in order to be "righteous " because they have more truth. But in general, yes, those with a testimony are more righteous, less sinful than the average. And it doesn't take much to beat the "average." But that is a topic deserving of its own thread.

And people wonder why some members no longer embrace Mormonism; why so many people find Mormonism offensive and obnoxious.

(sigh)

~dancer~


For Charity... just to clarify for you, my comment speaks to the over-the-top arrogance and eliticism you so exemplify. For some of us here, this sort of nonsense never seemed so holy.

WOW!!!! Well let me tell you all, and Charity as well......there are a heck of a lot of members who you think by looking at their outward acts of righteousness-temple attendance, paying tithes, grooming, saying testimonies, even having a pretty good testimony... that are really doing a lot of sin and making lots of mistakes. What does that make them???? Human! But they have issues and guess what Charity...they ain't really all that much holier then the next guy. I know because I spent hours with members in counseling when I held a calling to do just that. Mormons have all sorts of problems

by the way, can you clarify your "If the parents are faithful the wayward child will return" Are you referring to this life or Orson Whitney's famous wuote that they will come back in this life or the next because the sealing power will draw them.

No kidding, Jason and that's why I wish there had been more emphasis on helping humans than judging and condemning them when I went to church. I hope like several posters have said that such attitudes are changing, or that they are more generational than not.

[_Abinadi's Fire]

I have had long talks with my inactive children and grandchildren on their feelings. They are open with me. They know my love for them is not dependent on activity in the Church.

And faithful parents have been promised that their actions can help their wayward children.

If the parents remain faithful, the child will return eventually.

If you were my mother or grandmother I would see right through this.

You lay it on thick to them. Based on your claims that they are "open with you," I'd say it is because they love you in spite of your inconsistency.

[_Bond...James Bond]

I have had long talks with my inactive children and grandchildren on their feelings. They are open with me. They know my love for them is not dependent on activity in the Church.

And faithful parents have been promised that their actions can help their wayward children.

If the parents remain faithful, the child will return eventually.

If you were my mother or grandmother I would see right through this.

You lay it on thick to them. Based on your claims that they are "open with you," I'd say it is because they love you in spite of your inconsistency.

Heh. I think I've the shortest conversation I ever had with my grandmother concerned religion. In fact I can't think of one thing I'd rather not talk about with a grandparent than religion. (What person wants to have a discussion about religion with someone 50some odd years older than them? You really think the grandkid gives a shizzle?)

[_Abinadi's Fire]

In fact I can't think of one thing I'd rather not talk about with a grandparent than religion.

Heh - one thing? I can think of one, haha!

[_Bond...James Bond]

In fact I can't think of one thing I'd rather not talk about with a grandparent than religion.

Heh - one thing? I can think of one, haha!

LMAO! Well you got me there. *smiley*

Religion is probably in the Top 5 (or the top 2 of things done with clothes on.....if religion includes derobing....um....I'll think about it)

[_Abinadi's Fire]

On further reflection, though, charity's grandchildren are probably "open with her" because they are told they are supposed to be and are told that they don't "love her" unless they listen.

They probably would rather crawl under a rock than talk about this stuff with their grandma.

Ah, but maybe I'm wrong.

What kind of questions do they ask you, grandma?

[_Bond...James Bond]

They probably would rather crawl under a rock than talk about this stuff with their grandma.

Well of course. And who wants to disappoint their grandma by telling them they disagree with them over something as absolute and (supposedly) important as eternal salvation? It's easy to disappoint parents, kids were born to do that. But who doesn't love their grandma, that paradigm of family love who a person's first memories of seem to consist only to consist of gifts, love, and tasty meals.