Women in business & politcs

[_Blixa]

I agree with harmony on this---I think her explanation is pretty solid, though I admit when I was a teenager and a young woman I would have agreed with guy's first post. It took me a long time to understand, to even see, the material conditions that shaped so many LDS women's lives---not even "shaped," utterly circumscribed. Once I adjusted my perspective I became a great deal more sympathetic as well as a great deal more depressed about there ever being much change.

[_Jason Bourne]

Sherri Dew?

Sherri Dew is such an unrepentant boot-lick and tool of the Brethren that I hardly think she counts.

Women as a whole are unrepentent book-licks and tools for the Brethren. The manner in which they so willingly consent to their marginalization is sickening to me. When are they going to stand up and challenge the Patriarchy? We're talking in many cases of highly educated women who sit by passsively and do nothing while a bunch of Octogenarians define, and limit, their role in life and marginalize them within the community to which they devote their lives. Yet, they do nothing. Pathetic!

Some may try to stand up and as Harmony noted, got in trouble for it. Some also may be quite happy in the role they assume as LDS women. I have asked my wife many times is she would like the priesthood and to lead, be a bishop and so on, and she has not interest. She is quite happy not having it. I have asked other LDS women and many feel the same way. Others have not. Why are they boot licks if they are fine and happy. Why should they shake things up because you think they should?

[_Jason Bourne]

Sherri Dew?

Sherri Dew is such an unrepentant boot-lick and tool of the Brethren that I hardly think she counts.

Women as a whole are unrepentent book-licks and tools for the Brethren. The manner in which they so willingly consent to their marginalization is sickening to me. When are they going to stand up and challenge the Patriarchy? We're talking in many cases of highly educated women who sit by passsively and do nothing while a bunch of Octogenarians define, and limit, their role in life and marginalize them within the community to which they devote their lives. Yet, they do nothing. Pathetic!

Ahem. I guess I'll have to take this on, since I don't see anyone else doing so.

Guy, you are wide of the mark and here's why:

1. There aren't that many cases of highly educated women in the church. There are a few of us, yes, but I am the only woman with an advanced degree in my whole ward, and there are only a handful with a bachelor's degree. Most are for the most part uneducated. In order to become highly educated, one must circumvent the Brethren, and very few women have the support of their men that I had. More and more women will begin to gain a higher education as the number of worthy men shrinks, and the women are left with virtually no choices, but to have a career. This can only be a good thing. Both of my daughters have advanced degrees. Neither can be bothered to worry about the role of women in the church; the subject is simply not something either of them cares about.

2. Standing up and challenging the Brethren head on means having everything you have taken away. That is not a risk; that is a certainty. We must have leaders who care enough to lay their marriages and families on the line, and we simply don't have them. And the reason we don't have them is because the instant they raise their heads, they get them chopped off.

3. Relatively speaking, very few LDS women see themselves as marginalized. Liz and I are aberrations. On the contrary, LDS women generally see themselves as vital to the Plan, and are willing to sacrifice themselves in order to help bring to pass the Plan of Salvation. That they've been fed a line of bull is immaterial; that's what they believe.

4. To say that LDS women who have their eyes open do nothing is totally incorrect. It's impossible to imagine what the church would be like without those women who have gone before us, quietly changing the course of the church. We suffered an extreme setback at the turn of the 20th century, when Joseph F Smith radically changed the position of Relief Society and restructured the entire system. Many of the changes since then are a direct result of women. You don't think men cared if g's were one-piece, do you? You don't think men cared that Homemaking meeting was outdated, do you? You don't think men cared that church before the 3-hour block was torture, do you? Personally, I hate doing things behind the scenes, but most women aren't like me. We've been conditioned by society to do the same thing, so doing things behind the scenes in the church is no different.

I think you make some pretty good points. The only one I take exception with it the education one. I think the level of education may depend where you live. In my ward and stake there are a lot of educated women. Many are converts and had education before they joined. But many lifetime LDS women are educated and I think there are statistics to bear that out. Plus, the 20-35 year old women are especially educated.

[_harmony]

I think you make some pretty good points. The only one I take exception with it the education one. I think the level of education may depend where you live. In my ward and stake there are a lot of educated women. Many are converts and had education before they joined. But many lifetime LDS women are educated and I think there are statistics to bear that out. Plus, the 20-35 year old women are especially educated.

Educated where? At BYU? That's not exactly a progressive thinking institution, Jason.

[_guy sajer]

Sherri Dew?

Sherri Dew is such an unrepentant boot-lick and tool of the Brethren that I hardly think she counts.

Women as a whole are unrepentent book-licks and tools for the Brethren. The manner in which they so willingly consent to their marginalization is sickening to me. When are they going to stand up and challenge the Patriarchy? We're talking in many cases of highly educated women who sit by passsively and do nothing while a bunch of Octogenarians define, and limit, their role in life and marginalize them within the community to which they devote their lives. Yet, they do nothing. Pathetic!

Some may try to stand up and as Harmony noted, got in trouble for it. Some also may be quite happy in the role they assume as LDS women. I have asked my wife many times is she would like the priesthood and to lead, be a bishop and so on, and she has not interest. She is quite happy not having it. I have asked other LDS women and many feel the same way. Others have not. Why are they boot licks if they are fine and happy. Why should they shake things up because you think they should?

Many were quite happy under Stalin. What does this prove? Whether one is happy being oppressed doesn't mean that the oppression isn't happening or lessen it. That your wife wouldn't want the priesthood doesn't make it any less discriminatory to deny it to women. I suspect, also, that she's been conditioned to a degree to adopt this attitude. I wonder how she'd feel about a job environment that denied advancement opportunity to women because they're women? She may not want the promotion, but I bet she'd recognize the inherent inequity in the arrangement.

They're boot licks (I know a harsh phrase) because they take what's given them, or what's denied them, with nary a pause. They are complicit in their own marginalization. They are enablers of the partriarchy. They don't have to shake things up because I want them to--I'm merely commenting on what I observe. It they are happy being marginalized, that's fine; but they should not expect all of us to respect them for it. I'm not even talking about taking action, but it would be a start if they even acknowledged their situation. I understand that their are costs to action, what I understand less well is the unthinking acquiesence. I can't even get my wife to admit that the Mormon Church is sexist. I mean, geez, how obvious does it have to be?

[Anonymous]

They're boot licks (I know a harsh phrase) because they take what's given them, or what's denied them, with nary a pause. They are complicit in their own marginalization. They are enablers of the partriarchy. They don't have to shake things up because I want them to--I'm merely commenting on what I observe. It they are happy being marginalized, that's fine; but they should not expect all of us to respect them for it. I'm not even talking about taking action, but it would be a start if they even acknowledged their situation. I understand that their are costs to action, what I understand less well is the unthinking acquiesence. I can't even get my wife to admit that the Mormon Church is sexist. I mean, geez, how obvious does it have to be?

I know, I know---but, I would not use that phrase because I think it does imply a degree of conscious and voluntary behavior. Of course they are enablers of patriarchy, but conscious ones? As you say whether they feel opressed or not, the objective situation of opression is still the same and you point out how likely it is that they are not cognizant of any other way to conceptualize their lives than that they have been raised with and rewarded for. Its extremely hard to recognize something as a legitimate alternative if everything in your culture ensures that you can't even see something as an alternative (all that ideology of natural gender for one thing, which is replicated outside of Mormonism as well) or even see it at all.

It took me a long time to see how lucky I was---pure luck---to have been born into an "inactive" family who encouraged a different take on education, culture, travel and many other things. Had I not had one foot in and one foot out, had I not had the experience of those contradictory influences, who knows how I would have turned out? I literally shudder to think. I just had a moment of extreme stomach churning over MishMag's description in the Why They Leave thread of a woman saying that she was sad she was through having babies but happy she would be a grandmother in two years (her son being on a mission at the time). MishMag's description took me right back to my young adulthood in the most visceral way and made me actually a bit sick.

All in all, I agree with your descriptions, guy, but I explain them in a different (slightly different? very different?) way in terms of subject positions and ideological interpellation.

[_Jason Bourne]

I think you make some pretty good points. The only one I take exception with it the education one. I think the level of education may depend where you live. In my ward and stake there are a lot of educated women. Many are converts and had education before they joined. But many lifetime LDS women are educated and I think there are statistics to bear that out. Plus, the 20-35 year old women are especially educated.

Educated where? At BYU? That's not exactly a progressive thinking institution, Jason.

At many places including BYU. And I think my daughter has an undergrad and masters at BYU would take issue with you pooh pah about BYU. She has done quite well and is quite the independent minded woman thank you. But I can run down my ward and give you mumerous universities where some of these women were educated. Start with my wife-----Cornell. Another, Nazareth College...another SUNY at Geneseo...another U of U......others BYU and BYUI....Another University of Florida.....And on and on.

[_Jason Bourne]

Sherri Dew?

Sherri Dew is such an unrepentant boot-lick and tool of the Brethren that I hardly think she counts.

Women as a whole are unrepentent book-licks and tools for the Brethren. The manner in which they so willingly consent to their marginalization is sickening to me. When are they going to stand up and challenge the Patriarchy? We're talking in many cases of highly educated women who sit by passsively and do nothing while a bunch of Octogenarians define, and limit, their role in life and marginalize them within the community to which they devote their lives. Yet, they do nothing. Pathetic!

Some may try to stand up and as Harmony noted, got in trouble for it. Some also may be quite happy in the role they assume as LDS women. I have asked my wife many times is she would like the priesthood and to lead, be a bishop and so on, and she has not interest. She is quite happy not having it. I have asked other LDS women and many feel the same way. Others have not. Why are they boot licks if they are fine and happy. Why should they shake things up because you think they should?

Many were quite happy under Stalin. What does this prove? Whether one is happy being oppressed doesn't mean that the oppression isn't happening or lessen it. That your wife wouldn't want the priesthood doesn't make it any less discriminatory to deny it to women. I suspect, also, that she's been conditioned to a degree to adopt this attitude. I wonder how she'd feel about a job environment that denied advancement opportunity to women because they're women? She may not want the promotion, but I bet she'd recognize the inherent inequity in the arrangement.

They're boot licks (I know a harsh phrase) because they take what's given them, or what's denied them, with nary a pause. They are complicit in their own marginalization. They are enablers of the partriarchy. They don't have to shake things up because I want them to--I'm merely commenting on what I observe. It they are happy being marginalized, that's fine; but they should not expect all of us to respect them for it. I'm not even talking about taking action, but it would be a start if they even acknowledged their situation. I understand that their are costs to action, what I understand less well is the unthinking acquiesence. I can't even get my wife to admit that the Mormon Church is sexist. I mean, geez, how obvious does it have to be?

This evening please tell your wife she is a boot lick.

[_The Nehor]

Thanks for taking this one on, Harmony. :)

The only thing I can really add here is a big AMEN! LOL

In my Ward, there are actually quite a few women who are educated. Actually, those of us with advanced degrees are looked up to by other women. Many scratch their head and wonder how we managed to do it with small kids.

I have had many younger women talk with me, and feel defeated because they have small children at home and just don't know how to even begin attaining a degree. I have been able to give them some ideas and some direction since I teach for a local community college, and am also pursuing a Doctorate program, where a significant amount of the beginning work is done online in conjunction with my teaching.

Everyone should have an education if they want one, and it is very attainable. You may have to pursue it in baby steps, especially with small kids, but it is definitely possible.

I have taught several job preparedness classes as part of our Relief Society Homemaking night.

I think that things are changing...but as Harmony says, much of this is being done "in the background".

This has also been my experience. I think women of the last few generations with advanced degrees were rare....but then that was true (to a lesser degree) of the population at large. The LDS girl I'm dating has a more advanced education than me. It would not surprise me if women in the LDS Church end up more educated than the men. This is what I see in YSA and SA wards and activities. Professional women who don't want to date most of the guys with 2 years of college, no ambition, and a job that lets them live in mommy's basement and have a nice computer, a plasma TV, and an X-Box 360.

[_harmony]

Professional women who don't want to date most of the guys with 2 years of college, no ambition, and a job that lets them live in mommy's basement and have a nice computer, a plasma TV, and an X-Box 360.

In some ways, that describes my daughter;she's not interested in the men in her singles' wards. There are many single men in our area who are engineers with good jobs, but who don't want to leave the comforts of home, trading the HD TV, the X box, the hot tub to start out with a wife on a new life. They like their old life. They don't want to change. And they don't want a woman who teaches 201 children every day about health and fitness, sits on statewide committees, sets policy, hates to cook and clean, and isn't afraid to speak out about issues she holds dear. If they get around to trading that cushy life, it will be for a girl who cooks, cleans, and pops out babies without ever expressing a contrary opinion or expecting more than inadequate lovemaking. They don't want someone like my daughter, and she doesn't want someone like them.