Whitewashing in the new Joseph Smith Manual?

[_Jason Bourne]

This is just disappointing to me.

I noted elsewhere on this board that the martyrdom accounts in the new manual make no mention of Joseph having a gun and using it. I just don't get it. Does this not prove that the Church is trying to back peddle from a long held position on who the Indians are?

[_Imwashingmypirate]

....... Does this not prove that the Church is trying to back peddle from a long held position on who the Indians are?

I think that is the point of this thread.

Pirate.

[_SatanWasSetUp]

Being spiritually fed = being told to do or be the same things over and over and over and over and over and over and over in an excruciatingly simplistic manner

God forbid that this necessary, endless, mind-numbing repitition should be occasionally interrupted by a discussion about the historicty of the Book of Mormon.

I have a different definition of spiritually fed: Being taught in such a way that the Holy Ghost can teach whatever it is that needs to be taught to those attending. Critics would love for the 3-hour block to turn into a symposium/debate society but that would be against our doctrine. It involves creating strife and is an easy doorway to contention.

Debating religion is against church doctrine? Time to get rid of the missionary program. Come on Nehor, even you have to admit that church classes are boring. How does boredom lead to being spiritually fed. I remember one time when I was in my early 30s sitting in GD class and the lesson was on *drumroll please* the 3 degrees of glory. I suddenly realized that I have listened to this exact same lesson zillions of times since I was a kid. I looked around the room at all the people in their suits and dresses and realized that we all got up early and put on our Sunday best for THIS? The teacher even drew the little circles on the chalkboard to help us learn, LOL. Any person in the room could've stood up front and given the lesson without even looking at the manual. This is how EVERY lesson every week is. We've all heard it before. What the hell is the point of regurgitating the same crap over, and over, and over, and over, and over again? How is that more spiritually uplifting than having an intellectual debate on different aspects of the gospel examined from various points of view? The best classes I ever attended are when we went off tangent on some point of doctrine with everyone throwing in their opinions. The church discourages this because it causes "contention" but I think the real reason the church tries to keep their teachers on track in the correlated manual is because the "contentious debates" encourage people to think outside the box, or outside the correlated manual, and that causes problems, not for the individuals whose minds are broadened, but for the church.

[_Who Knows]

In any case, their whitewash has completely failed. You all saw through it.

Yes, we did. But what about your average chapel Mormon? How many members have even ever heard of the wentworth letter?

This abridged book.....has abridgements in it. Perish the thought.

Well, it's quite convenient when the entire letter is presented, and the only part that is 'abridged' is the controversial part. Gad quite clearly demonstrated that your 'abridgement' excuse holds no water.

Try again.

[_Dr. Shades]

I agree with everyone else here, Who Knows. . . GREAT CATCH! This is huge, in my opinion. Yet more proof that FARMS is guiding church doctrine, not the prophets, seers, and revelators.

[_The Nehor]

Being spiritually fed = being told to do or be the same things over and over and over and over and over and over and over in an excruciatingly simplistic manner

God forbid that this necessary, endless, mind-numbing repitition should be occasionally interrupted by a discussion about the historicty of the Book of Mormon.

I have a different definition of spiritually fed: Being taught in such a way that the Holy Ghost can teach whatever it is that needs to be taught to those attending. Critics would love for the 3-hour block to turn into a symposium/debate society but that would be against our doctrine. It involves creating strife and is an easy doorway to contention.

Debating religion is against church doctrine? Time to get rid of the missionary program. Come on Nehor, even you have to admit that church classes are boring. How does boredom lead to being spiritually fed. I remember one time when I was in my early 30s sitting in GD class and the lesson was on *drumroll please* the 3 degrees of glory. I suddenly realized that I have listened to this exact same lesson zillions of times since I was a kid. I looked around the room at all the people in their suits and dresses and realized that we all got up early and put on our Sunday best for THIS? The teacher even drew the little circles on the chalkboard to help us learn, LOL. Any person in the room could've stood up front and given the lesson without even looking at the manual. This is how EVERY lesson every week is. We've all heard it before. What the hell is the point of regurgitating the same crap over, and over, and over, and over, and over again? How is that more spiritually uplifting than having an intellectual debate on different aspects of the gospel examined from various points of view? The best classes I ever attended are when we went off tangent on some point of doctrine with everyone throwing in their opinions. The church discourages this because it causes "contention" but I think the real reason the church tries to keep their teachers on track in the correlated manual is because the "contentious debates" encourage people to think outside the box, or outside the correlated manual, and that causes problems, not for the individuals whose minds are broadened, but for the church.

Church classes are boring? Do you have horrible teachers or something? Come to mine. I often get big enthusiastic thank-yous and we have a very lively class with a lot of laughs, introspection, and spirituality. I'm the Gospel Essentials teacher and people seem to love my class. The Gospel Doctrine teacher is also brilliant and a lot of fun. We both sit down and present the material in a new way or come up with some new insight that will help the people we're teaching.

I have been to wards where the teachers quite bluntly sucked but those seem to be in the minority. In those cases I just get my scripture study out of the way earlier in the day.

We do discuss different aspects of the gospel examined from the points of view of everyone in the class who chooses to participate. I suppose the intellectual thrill of instructing in obscure topics might be fun but I'll take people coming up in grateful tears and thanking me any day. People come to Church more for help than for facts. It's also the mandate I teach under.

[_The Nehor]

Gad quite clearly demonstrated that your 'abridgement' excuse holds no water.

Ummmm, no. He guessed at the cause.

[_Mister Scratch]

Big-league? Have you read the other Prophet manuals? I'm guessing about half the quotes have ellipses.

Right. And how many of them are omitting stuff of huge doctrinal and historical consequence?

Quite a few actually. Admittedly most of my data on this comes from the Brigham Young manual from which I'd read a lot of the material and could mentally fill in blanks. The others I had much less of a basis for comparison.

I would be extremely interested in hearing about the other Church texts which use ellipses to eliminate embarrassing history. DCP and other Mopologists vehemently insist that they don't exist, save the BY manual.

They probably did take it out because it could lead to confusion just like much of the rest.

Good point. After all, you don't want the members to realize that long-standing doctrine has subtly been changed, right before their eyes.

30-35 minute lessons. I personally DO NOT want to sit through a Priesthood lesson where there is a discussion of the merits of a hemispheric model for the Book of Mormon. I go there to be spiritually fed not to experience intellectual criticism and discourse.

I see no reason why spirituality and intellectualism cannot go hand-in-hand. That is, I don't see why it's necessary to shut down one's brain in order to be "spiritually fed."

In any case, their whitewash has completely failed. You all saw through it. This abridged book.....has abridgements in it. Perish the thought.

It can only really be said to be a genuine "failure" if it results in more apostasies.

[_Who Knows]

Gad quite clearly demonstrated that your 'abridgement' excuse holds no water.

Ummmm, no. He guessed at the cause.

whatever.

Have you read this part of the Joseph Smith manual (i gave the link to the LDS.org site earlier in the thread)? Have you compared it to the actual wentworth letter? And if you've done both, are you seriously claiming there's nothing more going on here, other than simple abridgement?

If so, I'm in utah, but I've got some oceanfront property that I'd like to sell you...

[_mms]

. . . people seem to love my class. The Gospel Doctrine teacher is also brilliant and a lot of fun.

Is the Gospel Doctrine teacher also as humble?