The Internet and the Future of Mormonism...

[_harmony]

What I think many staunch LDS who are following Elder Ballard's advice will find is that people will read their blogs, and then recommend other blogs for the LDS to read. And once that happens, the barn door is open.

[_The Nehor]

Information is power? Yeah, verily. You want "freedom"? Do you think "the Internet" can verify whether Joseph actually had a vision?

If information doesn't bestow power, why do power structures try so hard to control it?

Yes, I think that the internet can verify whether Joseph Smith had a vision. A few google clicks and suddenly you have a trove of information that you never got from Sundary School or the Ensign that allow you to reach an informed decision. I am confident that 9+ out of 10 persons, who do not have a lifetime of emotional and financial investment to defend, who assess the evidence for Joseph Smith now available on the internet will conclude that he never had a vision. No one was in the grove but him (though I doubt he ever actually went to the grove to pray), but the preponderance of evidence is heavy and one might conclude with 99% certainty that Joseph Smith did not, in fact, see God and Jesus in a vision.

I am confident that 99+ out of 100 people believe he didn't have a vision no matter how you talk about it. If I judged correctness by numbers I'd have to convert. If I wanted to follow popular scholarship and their largest consensus I would become an athiest. Still, I don't need Joseph's witness that he talks to God. I talk to God. That is why this board can be very amusing. To compare it is like dozens of people producing extensive evidence that a man never existed, never lived, and discounting all the witnesses that said he did......when I talked with him last night.

[_Infymus]

I talk to God. That is why this board can be very amusing. To compare it is like dozens of people producing extensive evidence that a man never existed, never lived, and discounting all the witnesses that said he did......when I talked with him last night.

Wait a minute, in a prior thread on this board, you claimed he talked to YOU.

Beyond you talking to HIM, doesn't make the vision any more true.

[_guy sajer]

Information is power? Yeah, verily. You want "freedom"? Do you think "the Internet" can verify whether Joseph actually had a vision?

If information doesn't bestow power, why do power structures try so hard to control it?

Yes, I think that the internet can verify whether Joseph Smith had a vision. A few google clicks and suddenly you have a trove of information that you never got from Sundary School or the Ensign that allow you to reach an informed decision. I am confident that 9+ out of 10 persons, who do not have a lifetime of emotional and financial investment to defend, who assess the evidence for Joseph Smith now available on the internet will conclude that he never had a vision. No one was in the grove but him (though I doubt he ever actually went to the grove to pray), but the preponderance of evidence is heavy and one might conclude with 99% certainty that Joseph Smith did not, in fact, see God and Jesus in a vision.

I am confident that 99+ out of 100 people believe he didn't have a vision no matter how you talk about it.

True, let's clarify the above and say 9+ objective, open minded persons with a true desire to learn truth. The evidence is so overwhelming (I mean, geez, just how obvious does it have to be), that few reasonable, fair-minded, objective persons, without an emotional investment in it, would conclude the evidence weighs on the side of Joseph Smith.

[_The Nehor]

I talk to God. That is why this board can be very amusing. To compare it is like dozens of people producing extensive evidence that a man never existed, never lived, and discounting all the witnesses that said he did......when I talked with him last night.

Wait a minute, in a prior thread on this board, you claimed he talked to YOU.

Beyond you talking to HIM, doesn't make the vision any more true.

We both talk.........that's how conversations work.....did you honestly think you caught something there?

[_The Nehor]

Information is power? Yeah, verily. You want "freedom"? Do you think "the Internet" can verify whether Joseph actually had a vision?

If information doesn't bestow power, why do power structures try so hard to control it?

Yes, I think that the internet can verify whether Joseph Smith had a vision. A few google clicks and suddenly you have a trove of information that you never got from Sundary School or the Ensign that allow you to reach an informed decision. I am confident that 9+ out of 10 persons, who do not have a lifetime of emotional and financial investment to defend, who assess the evidence for Joseph Smith now available on the internet will conclude that he never had a vision. No one was in the grove but him (though I doubt he ever actually went to the grove to pray), but the preponderance of evidence is heavy and one might conclude with 99% certainty that Joseph Smith did not, in fact, see God and Jesus in a vision.

I am confident that 99+ out of 100 people believe he didn't have a vision no matter how you talk about it.

True, let's clarify the above and say 9+ objective, open minded persons with a true desire to learn truth. The evidence is so overwhelming (I mean, geez, just how obvious does it have to be), that few reasonable, fair-minded, objective persons, without an emotional investment in it, would conclude the evidence weighs on the side of Joseph Smith.

Then thank God I am an unreasonable, weird-minded, biased, emotionally invested person. (I'm assuming you meant they'd weigh in against Joseph but it's possible you had a change of heart in the last hour.)

[_guy sajer]

Information is power? Yeah, verily. You want "freedom"? Do you think "the Internet" can verify whether Joseph actually had a vision?

If information doesn't bestow power, why do power structures try so hard to control it?

Yes, I think that the internet can verify whether Joseph Smith had a vision. A few google clicks and suddenly you have a trove of information that you never got from Sundary School or the Ensign that allow you to reach an informed decision. I am confident that 9+ out of 10 persons, who do not have a lifetime of emotional and financial investment to defend, who assess the evidence for Joseph Smith now available on the internet will conclude that he never had a vision. No one was in the grove but him (though I doubt he ever actually went to the grove to pray), but the preponderance of evidence is heavy and one might conclude with 99% certainty that Joseph Smith did not, in fact, see God and Jesus in a vision.

I am confident that 99+ out of 100 people believe he didn't have a vision no matter how you talk about it.

True, let's clarify the above and say 9+ objective, open minded persons with a true desire to learn truth. The evidence is so overwhelming (I mean, geez, just how obvious does it have to be), that few reasonable, fair-minded, objective persons, without an emotional investment in it, would conclude the evidence weighs on the side of Joseph Smith.

Then thank God I am an unreasonable, weird-minded, biased, emotionally invested person. (I'm assuming you meant they'd weigh in against Joseph but it's possible you had a change of heart in the last hour.)

Unreasonable, perhaps not. Biases and emotionally invested, absolutely.

Weird minded, well, you do claim that God speaks to you. Although only one data point, it's a pretty convincing one.

[_The Nehor]

Unreasonable, perhaps not. Biases and emotionally invested, absolutely.

Weird minded, well, you do claim that God speaks to you. Although only one data point, it's a pretty convincing one.

Biased - I think it is hard not to be biased when you have met the deity in question.

Emotionally Invested - I have spent a good deal of time trying to bring my will into conformity with that of the deity in question.

Weird minded - Yeah, if you can jump to that supposition on that one point can I now jump to the conclusion that critics are hateful because they want to help the Church by ripping it to pieces? Please.

[_silentkid]

Hysteria happens.

It does, it does. Check Dr. Shade's avatar for confirmation of this. :)

[_guy sajer]

Unreasonable, perhaps not. Biases and emotionally invested, absolutely.

Weird minded, well, you do claim that God speaks to you. Although only one data point, it's a pretty convincing one.

Biased - I think it is hard not to be biased when you have met the deity in question.

Emotionally Invested - I have spent a good deal of time trying to bring my will into conformity with that of the deity in question.

Weird minded - Yeah, if you can jump to that supposition on that one point can I now jump to the conclusion that critics are hateful because they want to help the Church by ripping it to pieces? Please.

Nehor, let's be real here. You claim to meet God. I think it's perfectly reasonable for someone to conclude, based on that single piece of evidence, that you're . . . well . . . a bit wierd.

But that doesn't mean you're not a swell guy.