More Evidence of DCP's Gossipmongering

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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Again, for the record, I don't think anyone's actions unearthed in the course of these recent conversations paints anyone as a terrible villain, I'm just interested in consistent reasoning.



Heh. Consistent reasoning and DCP parted company quite a while ago, at least as far as this topic is concerned.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_Daniel Peterson
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Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Mister Scratch wrote:I did not lie regarding the RfM post.

That's possible.

Not likely, though.

Mister Scratch wrote:if you ever make up your mind to try and start over, I'm willing to extend my hand in a cyber-handshake to you.

There's nothing to "start over."
_Daniel Peterson
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Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Gadianton wrote:Huh, couldn't that be read as "lying" about reality?

It could. But it seems more reasonable to me to say that, in the heat of anger and passion, Ray misremembered. Knowing him, I think that's what happened.

You may disagree, but that's my judgment of Ray and of that incident.

On the other hand, by contrast, coolly doctoring a piece of evidence before posting it to disprove an opponent's claim seems a very clear bit of deliberate, cunning dishonesty.

Gadianton wrote:I thought DCP said he'd never known Ray A to lie, ever, not even if it meant a great personal loss.

I have never known Ray to lie. And what I said was that he is honest even if it causes discomfort.

Gadianton wrote:Yet, if what you're saying is true, then Ray would have specifically been "lying", or "severely misrepresenting reality" in order to make his case look better and DCP would have been proving to his peers that Ray A had "lied". And not only "lied" but "lying" specifically in the context of misrepresenting private communication.

There are several ways of misrepresenting reality. Lying is only one of them.

Gadianton wrote:Which means that we do, contrary to what he said elsewhere, have a pattern of Ray and "lies" in the context of private communications.

I don't think that we do.

Gadianton wrote:In fact, the pattern is established more fully than Scratch's.

No, it's not.

beastie wrote:Heh. Consistent reasoning and DCP parted company quite a while ago, at least as far as this topic is concerned.

I've laid out my reasoning. You can sneer, but you've identified no logical fallacies.
_Ray A

Re: More Evidence of DCP's Gossipmongering

Post by _Ray A »

Mister Scratch wrote:As should you. Look: all I have ever asked for was to be extended the very simply courtesy of being taken at my word. What, in all sincerity, is so wrong about that?


I wouldn't advise it - to anyone on this board.

Also, why don't you take DCP on his word, repeated an infinite number of times, about the "Quinn eipsode"?

Is this not a double standard?
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

I've laid out my reasoning. You can sneer, but you've identified no logical fallacies.


Well, technically it may not be a logical fallacy to regard lying* about cursing in an email to be a far more serious offense than threatening to kill Mormon missionaries, but it certainly is problematic reasoning.

*if - an if that's never been proven - scratch is, indeed, lying. It does seem odd to me that DCP has had personal experience with Ray exaggerating the content of email exchanges, but yet is completely willing to take Ray at his word in this regard.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_Trevor
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Post by _Trevor »

Do we really have to talk about Daniel Peterson all the time? Really?

Personally, I am kind of tired of it. The whole thing is so damned uninteresting. Surely there are more pressing topics out there.

Guess what? I gossip. Show me a person who doesn't! The demimonde of apologetics and polemics is exactly the kind of environment where people are guaranteed to gossip a lot.

It is also apparently the kind of place where a white, male, middle-aged Islamic Studies professor can attract enough ire to be the center of everyone's attention for years on end.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

Gadianton wrote:
Shades wrote:DCP's intent was to show how Ray A's public characterization of their private correspondence was rather extreme compared to the reality


Huh, couldn't that be read as "lying" about reality? Yet, I thought DCP said he'd never known Ray A to lie, ever, not even if it meant a great personal loss. Yet, if what you're saying is true, then Ray would have specifically been "lying", or "severely misrepresenting reality" in order to make his case look better and DCP would have been proving to his peers that Ray A had "lied". And not only "lied" but "lying" specifically in the context of misrepresenting private communication. Which means that we do, contrary to what he said elsewhere, have a pattern of Ray and "lies" in the context of private communications. In fact, the pattern is established more fully than Scratch's. In Scratch's case, DCP feels the RFM Scratch link can be established with high probability. Yet in Ray's case, he has two points of absolute certainty.

An interesting fork. It's either own up to gossip, or sell out Ray as "less than truthful."

Again, for the record, I don't think anyone's actions unearthed in the course of these recent conversations paints anyone as a terrible villain, I'm just interested in consistent reasoning.


DCP does not have to own up to anything. One thing you all disregard, or maybe don't know, is that when we visited together in late 2006 - we discussed these matters. Even his wife was involved, as a third party. I did not keep this correspondence, so I don't even fully remember the content. I do recall getting angry during the correspondence (perhaps on a similar level to beastie when she got angry with Bob), and maybe my recollection of the level of that anger was subsequently distorted. I do remember I was not proud of it, and feeling DCP did have a case if he had posted it publicly. I don't think exmos, at that time, would have condemned me, because I was on "their side" (Or so they thought, but not really, as my thread on the Book of Momon left them wondering "whose side I was really on")

For the record, I apologised to Dan for this, in the presence of about six witnesses, and I have never subsequently attacked him. We have had some disagreements about Mormon doctrine, by email, quite open and unreserved, but it has been nothing but amicable. We agreed to disagree on some things. And no, I would never put this correspondence to the hawks waiting to attack and twist every preposition, and try to make both of us "offenders for a word". We have had very frank email exchanges over the years, and I, personally, have felt very rewarded that I could so openly express myself to him about my doubts and disbeliefs, without so much as even a hint of condemnation on his part. But it took to me to change my approach, not Dan, before this could occur.
_Mister Scratch
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Re: More Evidence of DCP's Gossipmongering

Post by _Mister Scratch »

Ray A wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:As should you. Look: all I have ever asked for was to be extended the very simply courtesy of being taken at my word. What, in all sincerity, is so wrong about that?


I wouldn't advise it - to anyone on this board.

Also, why don't you take DCP on his word, repeated an infinite number of times, about the "Quinn eipsode"?



Which aspect of it? It has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt that he gossiped. End of story.
_Mister Scratch
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Post by _Mister Scratch »

Ray A wrote: But it took to me to change my approach, not Dan, before this could occur.


Yeah, no kidding. This is because DCP, rather like the institutional Church itself, refuses to ever apologize for anything.
_Daniel Peterson
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Post by _Daniel Peterson »

beastie wrote:It does seem odd to me that DCP has had personal experience with Ray exaggerating the content of email exchanges, but yet is completely willing to take Ray at his word in this regard.

Exaggeration (or even misremembering) in the heat of battle is rather different than consciously, deliberately, and calculatedly falsifying a text.
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