MishMagnet wrote:I realized just over a year or so ago that to many believers (Mormon and non-Mormon alike) there is a blurring of ethical behavior when it crosses over into the religious. The belief that unethical behavior is "okay", if not outright commendable when "endorsed by God" is responsible for the 9/11 hijackings, thousands of women burned at the stake, the Holy Inquisition and yes, polygamy too.
Thou shalt not kill - unless I say so. Thou shalt not commit adultery - unless I say so.
And so forth. There are apparently no hard and fast moral rules in this world that cannot be undone when you throw the will of God in there.
In my own family I've seen example of this. My temple married brother left his wife for a co-worker. Of course everyone was really upset about it. My brother endorsed his behavior with his new wife's patriarchal blessing which said she would have many trials but would eventually find a good husband when the time was right (have I mentioned she was also married at the time.) God confirmed to him by prayer that he should leave wife #1 for wife #2.
So explain to me why my Mormon family is so upset. Aren't all those things okay when God commands it? And I'm the lone person that calls BS in my family on Joseph Smith for the same thing.
Your posts are brilliant today (as always, I'm sure) MishMagnet!
Its that same logic that members buy into today when the Hinckster says things like: " I don't know that we teach that.." when they know full well that the church does or at the least did...
MishMagnet wrote:Thou shalt not kill - unless I say so. Thou shalt not commit adultery - unless I say so.
And so forth. There are apparently no hard and fast moral rules in this world that cannot be undone when you throw the will of God in there.
The most remarkable thing about your version of the commands "thou shalt not... unless I say so" is that it's never really God saying so. It's always his mouthpiece on Earth, ie: a man, saying them in his name.
What this really amounts to is a list of commandments that apply to everyone on Earth except that one self-proclaimed Prophet, and to whomever that man gives a dispensation, eg: Joseph Smith granting some of his close associates the right to practice polygamy.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
Sethbag wrote:The most remarkable thing about your version of the commands "thou shalt not... unless I say so" is that it's never really God saying so. It's always his mouthpiece on Earth, ie: a man, saying them in his name.
What this really amounts to is a list of commandments that apply to everyone on Earth except that one self-proclaimed Prophet, and to whomever that man gives a dispensation, eg: Joseph Smith granting some of his close associates the right to practice polygamy.
This is perhaps my biggest problem with Mormonism: it literally invests all morality into one person. Whatever that person says is right and good, no matter what. Mormons will protest that they don't believe in prophetic infallibility, but they do in practicality. Look, for example, at the recent "one earring" business. The prophet said it, so it's right. Bednar went so far as to say it was a good indicator of one's righteousness in following the prophet. Heaven forbid that Hinckley actually say something of moral consequence.
It literally eviscerates the concept that there is in fact a universally true morality in Mormonism. Mormons like to argue that there is a Right and a Wrong, that are universal and eternal.
This is a lie. Joseph Smith said it best in his Nancy Rigdon letter:
"That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another."
"Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is..."
Something Wrong is Right if God says so. And God says so through the instrumentality of His Prophet on Earth. So there is no universal, moral Right and Wrong, because a man on Earth can always "reveal" that the Lord commands such and such, and that suddenly becomes right.
Joseph Smith even backed this idea up in the Rigdon letter by reference to Old Testament atrocities committed by Israel against its neighbors. "God said, "Thou shalt not kill;" at another time He said "Thou shalt utterly destroy.""
Killing is bad, unless the Lord (through his Prophet) commands it. Genocide is fine if the God (through his Prophet) commands it. Adultery is fine if God (through his prophet) commands it. Lying and deception are justified by the person doing so because God had commanded a practice that society could not tolerate. It was better for them to obey God and lie to society, than to be honest with society and shirk their obligation to obey God's commands.
There is no universal Right or Wrong recognized in Mormonism. Thanks to the principle of Revelation, anything and everything is subject to modification if God's right-hand man on Earth says so.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
Sethbag wrote:It literally eviscerates the concept that there is in fact a universally true morality in Mormonism. Mormons like to argue that there is a Right and a Wrong, that are universal and eternal.
This is a lie. Joseph Smith said it best in his Nancy Rigdon letter: "That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another." "Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is..."
Something Wrong is Right if God says so. And God says so through the instrumentality of His Prophet on Earth. So there is no universal, moral Right and Wrong, because a man on Earth can always "reveal" that the Lord commands such and such, and that suddenly becomes right.
Joseph Smith even backed this idea up in the Rigdon letter by reference to Old Testament atrocities committed by Israel against its neighbors. "God said, "Thou shalt not kill;" at another time He said "Thou shalt utterly destroy.""
Killing is bad, unless the Lord (through his Prophet) commands it. Genocide is fine if the God (through his Prophet) commands it. Adultery is fine if God (through his prophet) commands it. Lying and deception are justified by the person doing so because God had commanded a practice that society could not tolerate. It was better for them to obey God and lie to society, than to be honest with society and shirk their obligation to obey God's commands.
There is no universal Right or Wrong recognized in Mormonism. Thanks to the principle of Revelation, anything and everything is subject to modification if God's right-hand man on Earth says so.
Yes, even the ultimate with the justification of slaying Laban for the "records." After that, anything is fair game! (with the Lard's orders....)
Sethbag - just to be clear I feel the same way you do - people justify their immoral behavior with God. Also God is always on the side of the victor. And, on the same note, the victor gets to write history. Thus we end up with a religious history of God condeming on one side and commanding on the other side.
It's easier for me to not believe in God than than to believe in a God who might say - kill your child. But why? You'll find out later. Does God command us to do the unethical? That really is the question for me.
You get your apologist (just regular apologist, this is not confined to LDS) response that when God commands it is not unethical. However I'm going to be skepital of any man who says God commanded him to do the unethical. This means Moses, Joseph Smith, Ferdinand of Spain, Marshal Applewhite, Osama Bin Laden.
It's easy to sadly shake your head at these mistaken people when it's not your religion being used as a vehicle for pain and suffering. When it's your beliefs it's all - so what if it broke Emma Smith to find out her husband was sleeping with her friends? God commanded it.
Insert ironic quote from fellow board member here.
Sethbag wrote:It literally eviscerates the concept that there is in fact a universally true morality in Mormonism. Mormons like to argue that there is a Right and a Wrong, that are universal and eternal.
This is a lie. Joseph Smith said it best in his Nancy Rigdon letter: "That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another." "Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is..."
Something Wrong is Right if God says so. And God says so through the instrumentality of His Prophet on Earth. So there is no universal, moral Right and Wrong, because a man on Earth can always "reveal" that the Lord commands such and such, and that suddenly becomes right.
Joseph Smith even backed this idea up in the Rigdon letter by reference to Old Testament atrocities committed by Israel against its neighbors. "God said, "Thou shalt not kill;" at another time He said "Thou shalt utterly destroy.""
Killing is bad, unless the Lord (through his Prophet) commands it. Genocide is fine if the God (through his Prophet) commands it. Adultery is fine if God (through his prophet) commands it. Lying and deception are justified by the person doing so because God had commanded a practice that society could not tolerate. It was better for them to obey God and lie to society, than to be honest with society and shirk their obligation to obey God's commands.
There is no universal Right or Wrong recognized in Mormonism. Thanks to the principle of Revelation, anything and everything is subject to modification if God's right-hand man on Earth says so.
Yes, even the ultimate with the justification of slaying Laban for the "records." After that, anything is fair game! (with the Lard's orders....)
That's how masons are suppose to kill a high ranking mason who talks about the secrets: chop off his head.
Sethbag wrote:It literally eviscerates the concept that there is in fact a universally true morality in Mormonism. Mormons like to argue that there is a Right and a Wrong, that are universal and eternal.
This is a lie. Joseph Smith said it best in his Nancy Rigdon letter: "That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another." "Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is..."
Something Wrong is Right if God says so. And God says so through the instrumentality of His Prophet on Earth. So there is no universal, moral Right and Wrong, because a man on Earth can always "reveal" that the Lord commands such and such, and that suddenly becomes right.
Joseph Smith even backed this idea up in the Rigdon letter by reference to Old Testament atrocities committed by Israel against its neighbors. "God said, "Thou shalt not kill;" at another time He said "Thou shalt utterly destroy.""
Killing is bad, unless the Lord (through his Prophet) commands it. Genocide is fine if the God (through his Prophet) commands it. Adultery is fine if God (through his prophet) commands it. Lying and deception are justified by the person doing so because God had commanded a practice that society could not tolerate. It was better for them to obey God and lie to society, than to be honest with society and shirk their obligation to obey God's commands.
There is no universal Right or Wrong recognized in Mormonism. Thanks to the principle of Revelation, anything and everything is subject to modification if God's right-hand man on Earth says so.
Yes, even the ultimate with the justification of slaying Laban for the "records." After that, anything is fair game! (with the Lard's orders....)
That's how masons are suppose to kill a high ranking mason who talks about the secrets: chop off his head.
Good thing it's only the masons that have been taught that!
Sethbag wrote:It literally eviscerates the concept that there is in fact a universally true morality in Mormonism. Mormons like to argue that there is a Right and a Wrong, that are universal and eternal.
This is a lie. Joseph Smith said it best in his Nancy Rigdon letter: "That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another." "Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is..."
Something Wrong is Right if God says so. And God says so through the instrumentality of His Prophet on Earth. So there is no universal, moral Right and Wrong, because a man on Earth can always "reveal" that the Lord commands such and such, and that suddenly becomes right.
Joseph Smith even backed this idea up in the Rigdon letter by reference to Old Testament atrocities committed by Israel against its neighbors. "God said, "Thou shalt not kill;" at another time He said "Thou shalt utterly destroy.""
Killing is bad, unless the Lord (through his Prophet) commands it. Genocide is fine if the God (through his Prophet) commands it. Adultery is fine if God (through his prophet) commands it. Lying and deception are justified by the person doing so because God had commanded a practice that society could not tolerate. It was better for them to obey God and lie to society, than to be honest with society and shirk their obligation to obey God's commands.
There is no universal Right or Wrong recognized in Mormonism. Thanks to the principle of Revelation, anything and everything is subject to modification if God's right-hand man on Earth says so.
Too true, Sethbag. And the apologists know this, even as they are desparately trying to rationalize away from it. If you notice the sentence immediately following Runtu's initial quote it says "Disillusionment can ensue if we follow the critics in assuming that because Joseph occasionally misled others in this specific context, he must therefore have lied about everything else, and been absolutely unworthy of trust."
Well, no duh. It is a natural and instinctive impulse to be on guard around a person who has been proven to lie. I think it is a good instinct. If one finds themselves in a position where they are trying to defend someone unworthy of trust, one ought to probably ask themselves why they are doing such a thing.
"I think one of the great mysteries of the gospel is that anyone still believes it." Sethbag, MADB, Feb 22 2008