Which way did they go Joe?

[_charity]

And believe me, as a former LDS bishop, etc., I understand and got the exact same "witness" that you did....

Suppose we, you and I, both go to a seminar on the health risks with smoking cigarettes. We come out of it convinced that we are going to have serious health problems if we continue to smoke. Then you quit smoking, but I don't. Who has the "higher witness"?

If you had the same witness to the truths of the Gospel as I did, you would still be an active member.

[_Runtu]

Suppose we, you and I, both go to a seminar on the health risks with smoking cigarettes. We come out of it convinced that we are going to have serious health problems if we continue to smoke. Then you quit smoking, but I don't. Who has the "higher witness"?

If you had the same witness to the truths of the Gospel as I did, you would still be an active member.

You cannot know that, charity. And it's rather presumptuous of you to say so.

[_BishopRic]

And believe me, as a former LDS bishop, etc., I understand and got the exact same "witness" that you did....

Suppose we, you and I, both go to a seminar on the health risks with smoking cigarettes. We come out of it convinced that we are going to have serious health problems if we continue to smoke. Then you quit smoking, but I don't. Who has the "higher witness"?

If you had the same witness to the truths of the Gospel as I did, you would still be an active member.

You don't know that, because you cannot "know" what I have experienced. To think so is nothing less than deceiptful arrogance. But I've come to expect nothing less than that from many Mormons...

[_charity]

Uh huh.

Check out a globe. Please note that from the SE tip of the Arabian Penninsula you have a few land masses in your way.

So, did they go south, around the Cape of Good Hope, a treacherous stretch of water. Then they go for a multi-month coastal juant up the coast of Africa, etc....

Or did they go the longer way, off of the coast of India, through Indonesia, past Australia and then 8 months (at best) across the Pacific to where?

The sites, the peoples, cultures, trials and tribulations would make much of the initial trek across the Penninsula seem tame.

Why do you keep asking a question which has no answer? Nephi didn't tell us. He isn't here to ask. You can't back track on trails across the ocean.

Besides, since you haven't read the Book of Mormon you don't know that Nephi specifically limited his writing on the small plates to only the most important things, like God's dealings with his people. Other informaiton he kept on other plates, which we don't have. Maybe the answer to your question is there. But for now, to keep asking shows that you are perseverating. That is not a healthy behavior.

[_the road to hana]

If you had the same witness to the truths of the Gospel as I did, you would still be an active member.

"Truths of the Gospel" does not necessarily equate with "truths of the Church."

Someone could go to an AA meeting, and pray about whether or not quitting drinking was right for them, and feel they got a witness that it was. But that might not be the same thing as getting a witness about the "truthfulness" of AA.

[_charity]

Could be just about anywhere on the planet, I would guess.

Or at least a place that had, ummm, streams, and, ummm, fruit trees. You know, like anywhere in the middle latitudes?

Um, like the Arabian Peninsula where less than 1% is arable land?

If you go to wiki, you can look at the global map of arable land.

I helps to do a little research before yoiu post.

[_BishopRic]

And believe me, as a former LDS bishop, etc., I understand and got the exact same "witness" that you did....

Suppose we, you and I, both go to a seminar on the health risks with smoking cigarettes. We come out of it convinced that we are going to have serious health problems if we continue to smoke. Then you quit smoking, but I don't. Who has the "higher witness"?

Actually, let me address this. I think your example is a good one. Science has consistently concluded that smoking creates health risks. Whether you or I quit has no bearing on that fact, and the "witness" remains the same for both of us. How each of us behaves as a result of gained knowledge does not change the fact.

The same applies to history. As much as Mormons like to merge "spiritual witness" with historical evidence, they are not the same. If we have concrete evidence about a certain event in history, there is no "witness" that is going to change that. Your use of the subjective term "higher witness" is a lame excuse for the lack of evidence for your claim.

[_charity]

Bishopric said he had the same witness I did.

And believe me, as a former LDS bishop, etc., I understand and got the exact same "witness" that you did....

Then when I said, if he had he would still be a member, he replied:

You don't know that, because you cannot "know" what I have experienced. To think so is nothing less than deceiptful arrogance. But I've come to expect nothing less than that from many Mormons.

So which is it. It is the same. Or it isn't. And who is deceitfully arrogant?

[_BishopRic]

Bishopric said he had the same witness I did.

And believe me, as a former LDS bishop, etc., I understand and got the exact same "witness" that you did....

Then when I said, if he had he would still be a member, he replied:

You don't know that, because you cannot "know" what I have experienced. To think so is nothing less than deceiptful arrogance. But I've come to expect nothing less than that from many Mormons.

So which is it. It is the same. Or it isn't. And who is deceitfully arrogant?

Have you ever been a "committed ex-Mormon," Charity?

I have been a devout LDS member most of my life. I rubbed shoulders with church leaders, went to the temple over a thousand times, sat in the dreaded meetings for 40 years of my life. I said exactly the same things you say here on this board everyday. I highly doubt your "spiritual witness" is any different than mine was. I have simply learned to interpret that "witness" differently today.

[_charity]

Have you ever been a "committed ex-Mormon," Charity?

No. I don't understand what you are asking here. I am missing something.

I have been a devout LDS member most of my life. I rubbed shoulders with church leaders, went to the temple over a thousand times, sat in the dreaded meetings for 40 years of my life. I said exactly the same things you say here on this board everyday. I highly doubt your "spiritual witness" is any different than mine was. I have simply learned to interpret that "witness" differently today.

In my training in psychology we learned that when comparing internal events, such as a spiritual witness would be, the most reliable measure is in behaviors associated with that event. As in the example I used before, when measuring the influence of a lecture on health risks associated with smoking, the number of people who quit smoking is an indication.

A question that comes up about Martin Harris and the encounter with Profession Anthon is another example. Martin Harris went to the professor and showed him a copy of some of the characters from the Book of Mormon. Harris reported that Anthon first validated the characters as being authentic, but then when told the history of the characters Anthon took back the certification. Later Anthon said he had told Harris they were fakes from the first. How do we know what Martin Harris believed? Because of his behavior. He immediately went home and mortgaged his farm to pay for the printing of the Book of Mormon. The behavior clearly indicated that Martin believed the characters to be authentic.

So two people report a spiritual witness. Is it clear that the only difference in the polar opposites of the behavior is interpretaiton? That is a big assumption.