A Public Apology

Post by **_Gadianton** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:19 pm

Steuss: You are welcome, my friend.

Seth: Yes! It's all good.

Blixa: I'm pretty sure, "Science Fiction and the Gospel", Temple and Cosmos

Harmony: I understand. But also understand that I'm not immortal and whatever disservice I've done to you or your friend will come back to me someday.

John Larsen: Don't you mean, "What about: sorry that you have to live a dreary life without whiskey and (guiltless) masturbation?" LOL!

Post by **_beastie** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:22 pm

There were any number of us for years who didn't realize there was any difference between the two. For some of us born into it, we thought the story of Mormonism was the story of Christianity.

Converts, maybe, have the benefit of seeing things a little differently. For the rest of us, it can take a long time to unfuse the two.

Yes, I'm sure that's true. After I lost faith in the LDS church, I immediately tried mainstream Christianity again, and for my life-long Mormon boyfriend, that was never a real possibility.

To me, one of the main differences is that Mormonism tries to push back the "unanswerable" a bit - but of course that creates more problems. Instead of just accepting all the "blanks" (for example, how was Jesus conceived, exactly what happens after death), Mormonism tried to fill in the story. But, in the end, when the basic story has illogical and insupportable assertions at its root, trying to fill in more answers only gets you into more trouble in the end. Mainstream Christianity learned to be silent about some issues for a reason. Trying to fill in the blanks ends up creating a fantastic sci-fi story, as Gad pointed out. And then it becomes even more ridiculous.

Post by **_Doctor Steuss** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:22 pm

Gadianton wrote:Blixa: I'm pretty sure, "Science Fiction and the Gospel", Temple and Cosmos

Is there a chapter of that in T&C? I thought the "Science Fiction and the Gospel" was only available in mp3 or CD format(?) Or is there more than one speech/article with the title?

Post by **_beastie** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:23 pm

John Larsen: Don't you mean, "What about: sorry that you have to live a dreary life without whiskey and (guiltless) masturbation?" LOL!

snicker

Post by **_charity** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:44 pm

the road to hana wrote:
beastie wrote:Mormonism - a great story slain by hard facts.

I posted this on another thread. Facts do not determine anything. It is the interpretation and use of those facts that is important. Suppose I have a test and it shows cancer cells. That is a fact. Cancer cells are present. Nothing more. Then after that, is the application of that fact. Chose to do nothing. Chose one treatment over another treatment. Fall in a miserable hopeless heap or go about your business.

The facts that you call "hard" facts do not impact the central message of the Restoration. There are no facts which say that the First Vision didn't happen. There are no facts which prove the Book of Mormon to be fiction. There are no facts which prove that Joseph Smith was not a prophet or that Brigham Young and the succeeding presidents of the Church were.are not prophets.

And I don't have to provide facts that prove it.

the road to hana wrote:
beastie wrote:It really is a great story, and that's part of what enthralled me for so long. It's really a better story than mainstream Christianity, in my opinion.

There were any number of us for years who didn't realize there was any difference between the two. For some of us born into it, we thought the story of Mormonism was the story of Christianity.

Converts, maybe, have the benefit of seeing things a little differently. For the rest of us, it can take a long time to unfuse the two.

I am convert. 19 year old college student. I guess I do see things a lot differently.

Post by **_the road to hana** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:50 pm

charity wrote:I am convert. 19 year old college student. I guess I do see things a lot differently.

If I recall correctly you weren't really any "active" mainstream Christian religion prior to that, so for the purposes of my statement, you might as well be BIC.

Post by **_Blixa** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:54 pm

beastie wrote:
There were any number of us for years who didn't realize there was any difference between the two. For some of us born into it, we thought the story of Mormonism was the story of Christianity.

Converts, maybe, have the benefit of seeing things a little differently. For the rest of us, it can take a long time to unfuse the two.

Yes, I'm sure that's true. After I lost faith in the LDS church, I immediately tried mainstream Christianity again, and for my life-long Mormon boyfriend, that was never a real possibility.

To me, one of the main differences is that Mormonism tries to push back the "unanswerable" a bit - but of course that creates more problems. Instead of just accepting all the "blanks" (for example, how was Jesus conceived, exactly what happens after death), Mormonism tried to fill in the story. But, in the end, when the basic story has illogical and insupportable assertions at its root, trying to fill in more answers only gets you into more trouble in the end. Mainstream Christianity learned to be silent about some issues for a reason. Trying to fill in the blanks ends up creating a fantastic sci-fi story, as Gad pointed out. And then it becomes even more ridiculous.

These are interesting points, beastie and TRTH. Along with Gad/Nibley's (sorry!) sci fi musings, I think this captures something about the appeal of Mormonism.

by the way, thanks for the reference Gad. This has no relevance to my current project, but it's a nice bit I want to tuck away for future potential...

Post by **_The Dude** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:02 pm

Awesome OP!

I appreciate Nibley's musing. For myself, I enjoyed science fiction when I was still a believer, but I was never too inspired by it until I blew my Mormon scriptures out the airlock.

Post by **_The Nehor** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:33 pm

Blixa wrote:oohh, oohh! A Nibleyism I'm unfamiliar with!! CFR, dude, C. F-ing. R.!!!

I can verify that Nibley did say that but I'm not at home and don't have access to my books.

I'd like to apologize too. Gad, I'm sorry you feel that way.

Post by **_Jersey Girl** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:31 am

charity

There are no facts which say that the First Vision didn't happen.

There really couldn't be, could there? How do you prove that something didn't happen? Prove a negative?

charity

There are no facts which prove the Book of Mormon to be fiction.

There will be.

charity

There are no facts which prove that Joseph Smith was not a prophet or that Brigham Young and the succeeding presidents of the Church were.are not prophets.

Again, you can't prove a negative. Except for, in the case of prophecy, one could apply the Bible test for a prophet to see how Joseph Smith and Brigham Young hold up to scruitny. Couldn't we?[/quote]