A Public Apology

[_beastie]

Charity,

We all know facts can be spun. However, reality is that, unless one is totally convinced that the church is true for reasons that have nothing to do with external evidence and has everything to do with spiritual witness, the events that can be shown to have occurred in LDS history are extremely persuasive that the church is not what it claims to be.

[_mledbetter]

Given Christmas is nearly upon us, and yes Coggins, I'm not afraid to put the "Christ" in Christmas, I thought I'd take a minute and apologize to the believing Mormons and especially the apologists. You've been given a raw deal and I just wanted to say that I'm sorry. I'm sorry that the church isn't true. I really am. Not for myself, I'm beyond that struggle now, but for all of you who were sincerely hoping for a great sci-fi adventure after death, I honestly feel a little bad. Hugh Nibley once said after reading dozens of science fiction books, that the entire genre was nothing more than a poor substitute for the Gospel, which I took to mean the Gospel was the greatest science fiction story ever created. I could see his point at the time, the high-tech Urim and Thummim, sometimes scaling to planetary size. The ability to sustain life on and colonize the moon and the sun. Galactic scale struggles with the forces of evil. Graviton force shields to mask the location of Kolob. Endlessly seeding universes which likely entails creating bubble universes from the mysterious quantum soap (as the apologists teach) all to be populated by uncountable sex acts. I won't go as far to say it's a noble dream, but it's one hell of a fantasy, and I can't honestly fault anyone for wanting it to be true. Mitt Romney's favorite book is Battlefield Earth, that is, next to the Bible (interpreted Mormon style) and I for one, understand and condone the escapism.

And I'm sorry it's all not true. I'm sorry that when you die that it's going to be lights out forever! Eternal blackness! Your existence, snuffed out, never to arise again. Doesn't that scare you? No Celestial treats for anyone. No joys in visiting the critics among the lower kingdoms and saying to them, "I told you so." It's just not going to happen. I understand you really want it to happen. That you can't imagine living the drudgery of day-to-day existence and then fading into nothingness. But eternal death, somewhat unfortunately to the thinking of many, is what has been slated for you.

I'm sorry that this whole epic drama was concocted by a man who was dangling a carrot on a stick to his followers in order to get his cut of adventure, glory and sex early. He gave you the fantasy of the next world so that he could live his fantasy in this world. I am remorseful that Joseph "Statutory" Smith was looking down at the hay with the barn door closed rather than up in the sky through a quiet grove of trees. It's just the way it was. And most of you were taught the majestic version so early that it's not really by choice that you believe in it and clutch it tightly to your chest.

And as I mentioned in the opening, I'm especially sorry for the apologists whose sense of duty binds them to invent the most fantastic excuses and craft the most absurd arguments -- excuses and arguments more unbelievable than Mormon mythology itself -- in order to redeem a man who never did anything more than use your own good faith and self-denial to see to his own self-indulgence.

It's a real shame that you were born into this mess, and since the church will never apologize to you for it, I just thought in the spirit of the Christmas season that I'd do it myself.

I'm sorry.

Don't apologize to me. I'm not afraid of death. Pain maybe, and tight spaces, but not death. Spiders, I hate them. Midgets...Never mind. You make some compelling arguments up until the point where you completely dismiss God, and then I naturally dismiss your arguments. I know for a fact that there is a God. This will be proven to you one way or another.

If you don't believe in God and spend your remaining days of your puny mortality on this puny earth rebelling against Him, then you are a fool. Don't be so narcissistic as to think you have everything figured out when it comes to the existence of God.

For all of the accusations I hear about DCP-from this board-about his postings on MAD so that he can merely puff up his ego with the applause of the so-called sycophants, I see no better proof of that type of behavior than right here in this thread. Before you condescend to your fellow mortals and amuse yourself by pointing out their supposed gullibility and ignorance, remember this. You are nothing. You are a speck of nothing on a speck of a planet circling a speck of a star circling in a speck of a galaxy drifting in a universe of countless galaxies and uncountable light years of space and nothingness/somethingness. Don’t be so arrogant.

I enjoy your posts here and on MAD however.

Oh, and as far as the visiting you in the lower kingdom thing. We'll probably be in the same one, so I hope to get to know you better and become good friends.

[_beastie]

I know for a fact that there is a God.

Don't be so narcissistic as to think you have everything figured out when it comes to the existence of God.

snicker

[_mledbetter]

I know for a fact that there is a God.

Don't be so narcissistic as to think you have everything figured out when it comes to the existence of God.

snicker

Mmm, I like snickers. Try them frozen.

I haven't said I know everthing there is to know about the existance of God, I just know that He IS.

Saying there IS no God, or implying so, is an absolute statement/inference one way and is arrogant. Saying you know He exists, but nothing more, is not an absolute.

Nice try, though.

by the way, I'm not knocking everything Gad is saying. I'm just saying, "be more prudent."

[_truth dancer]

Hi Mledbetter... :-)

I haven't said I know everthing there is to know about the existance of God, I just know that He IS.

Saying there IS no God, or implying so, is an absolute statement/inference one way and is arrogant. Saying you know He exists, but nothing more, is not an absolute.

I think saying you know He exists is pretty absolute. And of course you suggest you know God is a "He" which I assume you mean human-type male?

Funny how so many folks claim to know about God and yet everyone's version is so different, contradictory, and at odds with each other.

I'm leaving open the possibility there is some sort of God, (I'll go with Source, Infinite potentiality, or something... smile), but to think for one second this God is a human/male person who we could comprehend/invision/understand just seems too remote to even put in a "possibility" catagory. :-)

~dancer~

[_beastie]

Mmm, I like snickers. Try them frozen.

I haven't said I know everthing there is to know about the existance of God, I just know that He IS.

Saying there IS no God, or implying so, is an absolute statement/inference one way and is arrogant. Saying you know He exists, but nothing more, is not an absolute.

Nice try, though.

by the way, I'm not knocking everything Gad is saying. I'm just saying, "be more prudent."

Yeah, I used to love frozen snickers, back in the old days when I could eat junk food. :(

Gad stated that there is no god. Although he didn't use your exact words, perhaps he wouldn't object if we inserted these words in his mouth:

"I know for a fact there is no god."

(actually, I'm pretty certain gad would qualify that statement quite a bit, but for the purposes of this point, let's pretend it's accurate enough)

So you respond that he is narcissistic enough to think he has "everything figured out" when it comes to god.

In the same breath, you assert that you know for a fact god does exist.

And you really do not see how your statement and gad's are simply the polar opposite of one another, and if gad's assertion required a narcissistic belief he has "everything figured out", then so does yours?

[_solomarineris]

I'm sorry.

You should be sorry! (Raising arms to square), I damn you to hell.
For ruining my Christmas.
Now I am going to comfort myself with another Jack&coke.

Thanks alot!

[_mledbetter]

Hi Mledbetter... :-)

I haven't said I know everthing there is to know about the existance of God, I just know that He IS.

Saying there IS no God, or implying so, is an absolute statement/inference one way and is arrogant. Saying you know He exists, but nothing more, is not an absolute.

I think saying you know He exists is pretty absolute. And of course you suggest you know God is a "He" which I assume you mean human-type male?

Funny how so many folks claim to know about God and yet everyone's version is so different, contradictory, and at odds with each other.

I'm leaving open the possibility there is some sort of God, (I'll go with Source, Infinite potentiality, or something... smile), but to think for one second this God is a human/male person who we could comprehend/invision/understand just seems too remote to even put in a "possibility" catagory. :-)

~dancer~

I'm sorry, you are correct. You'll have to excuse me, I'm ignorant, so I don't explain myself well. I guess I was referring to not only God's existance, but his nature as well. When you say He doesn't exist, that's taking a huge leap regarding both. When you say you know he exists, but not much more, that's having faith based on some pretty compelling evidence. In many cases, that evidence if extremely personal, I suppose.

I'm just pleading for you guys not to be so rash. I've seen a lot of evidence and can show you how to recreate my tests and perhaps you will see for yourselves.

[_beastie]

Ok, tell us how to recreate your tests.

[_mledbetter]

Mmm, I like snickers. Try them frozen.

I haven't said I know everthing there is to know about the existance of God, I just know that He IS.

Saying there IS no God, or implying so, is an absolute statement/inference one way and is arrogant. Saying you know He exists, but nothing more, is not an absolute.

Nice try, though.

by the way, I'm not knocking everything Gad is saying. I'm just saying, "be more prudent."

Yeah, I used to love frozen snickers, back in the old days when I could eat junk food. :(

Gad stated that there is no god. Although he didn't use your exact words, perhaps he wouldn't object if we inserted these words in his mouth:

"I know for a fact there is no god."

(actually, I'm pretty certain gad would qualify that statement quite a bit, but for the purposes of this point, let's pretend it's accurate enough)

So you respond that he is narcissistic enough to think he has "everything figured out" when it comes to god.

In the same breath, you assert that you know for a fact god does exist.

And you really do not see how your statement and gad's are simply the polar opposite of one another, and if gad's assertion required a narcissistic belief he has "everything figured out", then so does yours?

Hello Beastie,
You'll find that I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong or when I've mistated myself. I suppose this is a case I haven't been affective with the English language. Not the first time. :-(

I suppose, when I refer to facts, I mean them to be facts that can be proven by the senses of man or man's knowledge of things. I don't put a whole lot of trust in those facts, so I'll say, as far as I can tell, I know there is a God.

I'm assuming that Gad would put a lot more trusts in our supposed man-proven facts. I would warn anybody about putting too much trust in the 'arm of flesh' I suppose.

Therefore, my knowledge based on facts that I know there is a God is as much faith as Gad's faith that there is no God.

I suppose being arrogant would be to think my reasoning is any more faith-based than his own.

I've had an extremely powerful and compelling witness that there is a God, based on how much I want to trust my senses. I trust them, in this case, on a little bit of faith.