John Dehlin's comments on FARMish apologia

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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Seth,

That is also the point that Michael Coe made in the article This is NOT the place:

http://www.ldshistory.net/bomnot.html

With Sorenson's elastic style of argumentation setting the overall tone, there is about FARMS a dizzying buzz of intellectual energy, with scholars investigating every imaginable cranny of inquiry, from hermeneutics to meteorology, from animal husbandry to the prevailing currents of the oceans. Yale's Michael Coe likes to talk about what he calls "the fallacy of misplaced concreteness," the tendency among Mormon theorists like Sorenson to keep the discussion trained on all sorts of extraneous subtopics (like tapirs and nuptial beds) while avoiding what is most obvious: that Joseph Smith probably meant "horse" when he wrote down the word "horse," and that all the archaeology in the world is not likely to change the fact that horses as we know them weren't around until the Spaniards arrived on American shores.

"They're always going after the nitty-gritty things," Coe told me. "Let's look at this specific hill. Let's look at that specific tree. It's exhausting to follow all these mind-numbing leads. It keeps the focus off the fact that it's all in the service of a completely phony history. Where are the languages? Where are the cities? Where are the artifacts? Look here, they'll say. Here's an elephant. Well, that's fine, but elephants were wiped out in the New World around 8,000 B.C. by hunters. There were no elephants!"


I do agree that there are some who just want to be assured that really smart guys with PhDs have studied the issues and will tell them they're right to keep believing. For those people, the inquiry will go no further and apologetics serves it purpose. But I think the leaders are gambling if they condone apologetics (and I think they do, particularly given the recent change to the Book of Mormon intro) in the expectation that this is all anyone wants. It appeases some, but like Jason is recounting with his own story, and Kevin G, and Runtu - certainly it doesn't work for all. Others are applying what they were taught in Mormonism - that truth has its own value, and is worth fighting for. And they will dig more in order to be sure that they are defending the real truth.

Dehlin mentioned - it may have been on his podcast about heroes - that if one doesn't delve beyond the Sunday School myth, then one is one google search away from disillusionment and even loss of faith. I think that is what he is attempting to address. Whether or not it is true for all Mormons who end up altering their view of what the LDS church is, there are some who still find value and worth in participation therein. I know that's not a popular decision among some exbelievers, but I respect anyone's right to self determination. I believe Dehlin is trying to demonstrate how that can be done. I know that doesn't suit everyone, and some call it cowardice and hypocrisy, but, to me, it's just religion. It's the way religion is. Most sensible people are cafeteria followers of whatever religion they adhere to, anyway.

But maybe church leaders have had to make a decision, which group to cater to - those who just want to be reassured and will remain faithful, or those who will remain faithful in their own way after probing the answers given? I bet they prefer to bankroll, so to speak, on the first group. But as time goes on, and the internet becomes more and more pervasive, they may have to start thinking about group 2 as well.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Trevor,

I've been meaning to ask you about your sig line. It's interesting - can you provide background context?

Harmony,

Dehlin's comments are dated July 4, 2006.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Trevor
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Post by _Trevor »

"They're always going after the nitty-gritty things," Coe told me. "Let's look at this specific hill. Let's look at that specific tree. It's exhausting to follow all these mind-numbing leads. It keeps the focus off the fact that it's all in the service of a completely phony history. Where are the languages? Where are the cities? Where are the artifacts? Look here, they'll say. Here's an elephant. Well, that's fine, but elephants were wiped out in the New World around 8,000 B.C. by hunters. There were no elephants!"


I love that quote. I never tire of reading it. That guy nailed it.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_BishopRic
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Post by _BishopRic »

Jason Bourne wrote:I think Dehlin's comments are fair. Interestingly I just listened to his interview with John Lynch. I thought is was pretty good and Lynch is ok if he really does apologetics like he says. But on one point I disagreed. Dehlin asked Lynch if anyone ever got involved in apologetics and then became disaffected. Lynch essentially said that in such cases they probably would have left anyway and that maybe they ran into a criticisms, looked to apologetics to help them, became involved in apologetics to maybe even an unhealthy degree and that it was a patch. Thus they were on their way out and apologetics kept them in the Church for a bit longer then they might have stayed.

I am surprised Dehlin did not challenge him on this given his comments in the OP of this thread.

I think that Lynch is wrong here. I look at Kevin Graham and knew him before and after so to speak on various other boards. He was an avid defender. I do not know why he got involved. But I think he became dissilusioned in part because of some of the issues Dehlin points to.


I think Runtu may have a similar experience.

Then I look at myself. I do not blame apologetics directly for where I am at but maybe in part. Let me explain.

Active all my adult life. Served in every capacity one can almost accept for a stake presidency. Love the Church, it defined me. Was always well read and even knew about many controversies. Had no plans to evolve into a more liberal Mormon. I could not have imagined doubting what I have built my whole life on. I even used to love to engage anti's some. But once I ran into an issue that I founf rather challenging and looked to help from FARMs publications and FAIR and other sources. Well without going into all the detail I was sort of surprised as I became a regular reader for FARMS Review, read many papers by many apologists I found myself thinking "Please address the issues and stop talking about the person who made the criticism." I saw a lot of that and it bothered me. I even became a hobby apologist and loved it.

Was it a patch because I wanted to leave anyway or would have? Maybe. But I think not. I loved the Church and still do. But it just seemed as more and more problems came up and as I delved more and more into so much of the history, with perhaps polygamy, Adam God and other 19th century teachings we wish were never taught, evolving temple endowment as well as it founding in secrecy and polygamy, evolving and now apprent devolving teachings about God and the Godhead, I just found it was not defensible.

I remember the horror I felt inside when a friend of mine who teaches religion for BYU said to me at a New Years Eve party after discussing the recent David O. McKay bio and RSR "If you are going to delve into LDS history you better have a strong testimony or it may blow you out of the Church." WOW I thought, that is just awful! And he was right. But what good is a subjective testimony in light of facts? Then I started to at least in my view see the twisting that I had accepted and even applied when engaging criticisms. I could do it no longer. The Church for me could never be the same.

Was this related to apologetics? Yes I think it was to a certain extent. Maybe not all. Maybe some would argue that I never had a solid testimony and was was easily tumbled. But if you knew me you would not say that. I have been a leader, stalwart, pillar, even known as a scriptorian, well read in LDS history, etc. The LDS Church has been so much a part of my life. So I do think apolgetics was tied to where I am at now. And now, I see how really bad some if it is.


Thanks for this story, Jason. It helps to get to know each other when one shares like this.

Props!
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

I don't have personal experience to share on how much apologetics helped/hurt me when I first discovered these things, because I couldn't find any. This was before I had internet access and I had never heard of FARMs, and living in an area with almost no Mormons, there is nothing in the local library, either, other than a couple of anti books. All I could do was talk to other members to try and find out more about these things. But most of the members I talked to had never heard of these things, like Joseph Smith' polygamy/polyandry. I even went to the extent of calling the "ward expert" on church history, a man whose son is now a well-known apologist, and who had written a book himself on Nauvoo. He wasn't a pleasant person, in general, and many members of the ward avoided him. He was one of those folks who liked "certain" callings, and didn't want to get involved in other ways. He liked being Gospel Doctrine teacher, of course. But at any rate, he wasn't an accessible person, and it was hard for me to call him out of the blue to ask for help, yet I was so desperate for help I did. I will never forget the conversation. I didn't quite know how to broach the topic, so I simply asked him "in your studies of church history, did you ever read something that troubled you?" His answer was a brusque "NO". He made no attempt to question me more. Just: NO. Conversation over. It was extremely awkward, and sounds almost unbelievable as I recount it - most people would reach out and ask "what has troubled you", but he didn't. Wasn't interested. I felt very embarrassed for even having called him and just thanked him for his time and hung up.

My bishop did try to explain the different versions of the First Vision to me, but that was almost a minor issue to me by that time. Other than that, I had no exposure to apologetics.

I will say, though, if during my period of hanging on to belief and trying to resolve these issues, had I gone to FAIR and been treated like I've seen other doubters treated, it probably would have expedited my exodus from the church.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_moksha
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Post by _moksha »

Jason Bourne wrote:
beastie wrote:After listening to his "other heroes" podcast (linked in moksha's thread in the CK), I have come to the conclusion that dehlin is trying to be his own kind of hero, as well - someone who is willing to stand up and protest.


Dehlin is quickly becoming one of my LDS heroes.


Readers can access that thead here: http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/viewtopic.php?t=4256
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_solomarineris
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Post by _solomarineris »

Jason Bourne wrote:
beastie wrote:After listening to his "other heroes" podcast (linked in moksha's thread in the CK), I have come to the conclusion that dehlin is trying to be his own kind of hero, as well - someone who is willing to stand up and protest.


Dehlin is quickly becoming one of my LDS heroes.


Dehlin's interviews with Grant Palmer, Toscano's and many others (pros/cons) did expose enough
disingenuity within the ranks they simply do not know how to handle him.
If I was the Prophet I'd give him an immediate calling of a Seventy, later 12.
He is that good.
Church should start utilizing smart people like him.
_Infymus
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Post by _Infymus »

Even though this article is old from John, I am going to archive it anyway.
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

I have the sense that the church will eventually move to reflect those like John.

My impression is that John can honestly acknowledge mistakes, warts, and unhealthiness in the LDS church; can release the not so good while embracing the good in the church; and has found a way to softened many of the harmful teachings and beliefs that no longer seem realistic, historic, honest, or representative of reality.

John is a great man and I'm voting for him for next prophet! ;-)

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_Infymus
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Post by _Infymus »

truth dancer wrote:I have the sense that the church will eventually move to reflect those like John.


I completely disagree.

LDS Inc. has always been an institution where John's behavior is condemned. He will be seen as a disaffected member. He will be told he needs to drink a lot more milk. Mormon leaders have always taught that people like John are faltering - are deceived. Members will be counseled to avoid him and he will be brought in before his leaders and told he can have his opinion - but he has to keep it to himself. If he persists, he will be cut off.

No, the Cult will never change. It has shown for propensity to cover up, hide and "we go forward".

Money is the power the Cult has and they will do anything to protect the base of money - their tithed members. If members suddenly start thinking like John, then there could be all kinds of problems in getting real guilt tripped tithes to come in.

No... No... The Cult needs control. John is "out of control". And while John is showing that he is indeed human, Mormon leaders will not tolerate him.
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