Spiritual trauma: did you have any?

[_BishopRic]

While reading some great posts on the Dehlin thread, I got curious about if others had something happen to them that triggered "further study" about issues they may not have even cared about otherwise. In other words, was there an event -- some may call it "being offended," or a shocking experience in church that sparked research/thought/prayer...all which combined to a change in faith?

For me, it was while I was an acting bishop. My bish had had a serious accident that forced me at 35 to step into the position of ward boss (I was officially the 1st counselor). And this was in a very established (a.k.a. "older") area with many former bish's, SPs, and even a GA Emeritus. The first Sunday I had four "sisters" request time with me. All of them revealed to me that their husbands had been abusive in their homes...two of them sexually, with them and their kids, and they wanted my help to intervene.

I was stunned -- for many reasons. The rest of the story was that they had asked the previous bishops and SPs to help, but got no support previously. As such a bishop greenie, I told them I would look into the proper steps to take and get back with them.

My SP was not surprised when I made the late phone call to him that night. In almost a "don't bother me with this" sort of attitude, he said they were continuously whining about this, and these men were righteous priesthood holders, former leaders in the church, and I should consider this when deciding how to proceed.

Suddenly all the "anti-Mormon" claims that I had disregarded up to that point in my life...I started regurgitating. Could any of these asinine claims be true? How could the one true church that claims to have the only way back to God actually allow this kind of process to occur?

Now, I'm smart enough to know that the church is run by normal humans...and they are doing the best they can. This event was not enough to destroy my "testimony," but it triggered a serious study of the church over the next few years that probably wouldn't have happened had I not experienced what I did as an acting bishop. Of course I found that many of the "anti" claims were actually true -- something I had successfully denied up to that point.

How many others have had a crisis of faith experience that was a turning point in their spiritual journeys?

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

I converted at 14, and apparently a very naïve 14. I was taught, for one thing, that nobody unworthy could enter the temple, that the temple workers had the power of discernment to turn them away at the door. I believed it literally and completely. I was a naïve BYU student when I learned that inside the temple were lockers with padlocks for safeguarding one's belongings. It hit me like a canned ham! I guess I had imagined that the temple was one place in the world where a person could leave their purse or whatever lying around anywhere and never give it a second thought. It made me physically sick for a week before I was able to get it properly compartmentalized, and it was many more years later that I actually left the church.

It's kind of trivial, but it was just one thing like this after another and they add up.

I hope those sisters in your ward eventually learned that we live in a society with police and court systems to help with abusive husbands and that the bishop is not their only line of defense ... that not even well-intentioned bishops (most of them, I believe, are well-intentioned) have the training/ability to help ward members with real problems . If I'd been in their situation as a young Mormon woman, though, sadly, I probably would have made the same mistake. I literally believed that bishops had special guidance from the Lord in these matters.

[_BishopRic]

I converted at 14, and apparently a very naïve 14. I was taught, for one thing, that nobody unworthy could enter the temple, that the temple workers had the power of discernment to turn them away at the door. I believed it literally and completely. I was a naïve BYU student when I learned that inside the temple were lockers with padlocks for safeguarding one's belongings. It hit me like a canned ham! I guess I had imagined that the temple was one place in the world where a person could leave their purse or whatever lying around anywhere and never give it a second thought. It made me physically sick for a week before I was able to get it properly compartmentalized, and it was many more years later that I actually left the church.

It's kind of trivial, but it was just one thing like this after another and they add up.

I hope those sisters in your ward eventually learned that we live in a society with police and court systems to help with abusive husbands and that the bishop is not their only line of defense ... that not even well-intentioned bishops (most of them, I believe, are well-intentioned) have the training/ability to help ward members with real problems . If I'd been in their situation as a young Mormon woman, though, sadly, I probably would have made the same mistake. I literally believed that bishops had special guidance from the Lord in these matters.

Yeah, I remember thinking the same thing about temple lockers...funny!

Your comment about the "special guidance" given bishops, etc., made me remember how I was one of those who thought the same. I didn't give it much thought, but I always felt that the leaders seemed to have a humble confidence that I perceived to indicate they had been given extra "evidence" that the normal member didn't have. After serving in those positions, I came to see that not only did they/we NOT have any extra gifts, they/we felt the pressure to act like we did! It was another trigger when I observed that these men were simply politicians in their own right....

[_charity]

BishopRic, were you called and sustained as a bishop, or were you actiing in your capacity as First Counselor? I have never known as a situation where a First Counselor stepped out of his ordained and set apart position, even when the bishop was gone for a month. As ours just was. So, were you actually called by the stake president? Sustained by your ward as the bishop?

Please let us know.

Lucretia, little locks in the dressing room destroyed your testimony? And please, PADLOCKS is quite an overstatement. The keys to the lockers in the Portland temple are so small, I sometimes have a hard time finding mine if I have a couple of cough drops in my pocket.

[_BishopRic]

BishopRic, were you called and sustained as a bishop, or were you actiing in your capacity as First Counselor? I have never known as a situation where a First Counselor stepped out of his ordained and set apart position, even when the bishop was gone for a month. As ours just was. So, were you actually called by the stake president? Sustained by your ward as the bishop?

Please let us know.

Lucretia, little locks in the dressing room destroyed your testimony? And please, PADLOCKS is quite an overstatement. The keys to the lockers in the Portland temple are so small, I sometimes have a hard time finding mine if I have a couple of cough drops in my pocket.

I always laugh when the interrogations start about my story. The Mormon mind works wonders...when challenged, it goes straight to questioning the source, rather than the actual event. I guess it keeps the Mormon safe if they can somehow discredit the challenger...don't have to consider the possibility that the church is less than perfect!

Just so you can remain in your perfect bubble Charity, I won't answer your questions. There, now you're okay...you can imagine anything you want -- and I'm sure you will!

[_charity]

BishopRic, were you called and sustained as a bishop, or were you actiing in your capacity as First Counselor? I have never known as a situation where a First Counselor stepped out of his ordained and set apart position, even when the bishop was gone for a month. As ours just was. So, were you actually called by the stake president? Sustained by your ward as the bishop?

Please let us know.

Lucretia, little locks in the dressing room destroyed your testimony? And please, PADLOCKS is quite an overstatement. The keys to the lockers in the Portland temple are so small, I sometimes have a hard time finding mine if I have a couple of cough drops in my pocket.

I always laugh when the interrogations start about my story. The Mormon mind works wonders...when challenged, it goes straight to questioning the source, rather than the actual event. I guess it keeps the Mormon safe if they can somehow discredit the challenger...don't have to consider the possibility that the church is less than perfect!

Just so you can remain in your perfect bubble Charity, I won't answer your questions. There, now you're okay...you can imagine anything you want -- and I'm sure you will!

And I always enjoy it when those who insist on "truth in advertising" get coy with pertinent facts. Of course, it makes a difference if you were an ordained bishop, or a first counselor in a bishopric when you relate a direct experience. It wouldn't make a hill of beans difference if you were opining about the Book of Abraham, or the narrow neck of land. Here it does. You made representations that are beginning to sound little fishy. Like the guy who insisted he was almsot a Seventy. He had gotten all the way to the Sixty's. Nobody "steps into" being the "boss" of the ward.

[_The Nehor]

BishopRic, were you called and sustained as a bishop, or were you actiing in your capacity as First Counselor? I have never known as a situation where a First Counselor stepped out of his ordained and set apart position, even when the bishop was gone for a month. As ours just was. So, were you actually called by the stake president? Sustained by your ward as the bishop?

Please let us know.

Lucretia, little locks in the dressing room destroyed your testimony? And please, PADLOCKS is quite an overstatement. The keys to the lockers in the Portland temple are so small, I sometimes have a hard time finding mine if I have a couple of cough drops in my pocket.

I always laugh when the interrogations start about my story. The Mormon mind works wonders...when challenged, it goes straight to questioning the source, rather than the actual event. I guess it keeps the Mormon safe if they can somehow discredit the challenger...don't have to consider the possibility that the church is less than perfect!

Just so you can remain in your perfect bubble Charity, I won't answer your questions. There, now you're okay...you can imagine anything you want -- and I'm sure you will!

And I always enjoy it when those who insist on "truth in advertising" get coy with pertinent facts. Of course, it makes a difference if you were an ordained bishop, or a first counselor in a bishopric when you relate a direct experience. It wouldn't make a hill of beans difference if you were opining about the Book of Abraham, or the narrow neck of land. Here it does. You made representations that are beginning to sound little fishy. Like the guy who insisted he was almsot a Seventy. He had gotten all the way to the Sixty's. Nobody "steps into" being the "boss" of the ward.

I'm with Charity here. The 1st Counselor does not take the Bishop's place. If the Bishop is unable to function for an extended period, they are released. I've never heard of a Bishop's counselor initiating disciplinary action against anyone.

Also, 4 women rush into your office the second the guard supposedly changes? I've never heard of counselors stepping in to give Bishop's interviews. They do Temple Recommend interviews and that is pretty much it. Any time there is a problem in the Recommend interview they immediatly refer them to the Bishop. I want to make it clear I'm questioning the actual event. :)

[_Inconceivable]

Also, 4 women rush into your office the second the guard supposedly changes?

Oh yes. Ask anyone that has been a bishop - from panhandling for larger helpings of welfare to testifying against a family or ward member that had previously fallen on deaf ears.

Why is this so difficult to understand?

[_Inconceivable]

I'm with Charity here. The 1st Counselor does not take the Bishop's place. If the Bishop is unable to function for an extended period, they are released. I've never heard of a Bishop's counselor initiating disciplinary action against anyone.

Yuck. Charity has someone with her. Nehor, now you got kudies.

When the bishop is not present, it has always been the duty of the 1st counselor to preside.

Does he function with all of the duties of the bishop? No, unless he is given authority to do so by the stake presidency (set apart) and is formally sustained by the ward membership. Oh yeah, and if he accepts the position.

This can be temporary or permanent.

If I had Charity's mindset, I would be questioning if you and Charity were ever even really active Mormons. All Mormons know this so you must not and could never have been Mormon. Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? Even though every Mormon does know who presides when the bishop is out. Next time you decide to battle, put a rock in your sling.


Charity,

As BishopRic would prove to you his authenticity in presiding over one of the "newlywed/nearlydead" wards, you would plug your ears, peeping and muttering "lalalalalalalalalala". You have no credibility here. You do nothing but cave and run when we call you out on your road apples of drama and conjecture.

[_The Nehor]

Yeah, the First Counselor presides. They do not, as a rule, participate in counseling Church members. I have been in positions where I was involved with the Bishopric extensively (Clerk and Executive Secretary). When the Bishop is away the First Counselor deals as best he can but he does not start counseling ward members in private meetings and deal with welfare recipients without consulting with the Bishop.