Ray A: A Mormon 'John'?

[_Gazelam]

Ray,

If you don't mind answering...is prostitution legal in your country? Not trying to stir the pot, just curious to know.

Jersey Girl

Jersey Girl, yes it is. And the female age of consent is 16.

Wow, perhaps the Spears family can move there to escape the derision they are currently suffering.

[_Gadianton]

God isn't the only prude in existence. LOL. But, failing this, we resort to "other pleasures". I think this is where God understands,

Can you please cite the scripture which makes this clear? Or is this another instance where Ray's life observations outclass the word of God?

A cheated wife could well call her wandering husband a "whoremonger". Would you object to that?

Well, it's a bit horse and buggy, but otherwise my only objection is that I think the word includes people who aren't married as well.

So yes, I agree with the Book of Mormon. (Is that shocking?)

Yes. Because the Book of Mormon makes a black and white declaration on the matter that you don't agree with.

I think it's a practical moral choice in some circumstances,

I'd rather not marry just to "contain", as per Paul. If I marry just to "contain", then I might as well think of my partner as a blow-up doll.

I'll note then you also disregard the Bible. Please don't tell me you'd defend the Bible 'til death as well...

None of the girls I know respect it. Why should I? At the same time, it's a vital industry. It stops perverts...

Ray, your speech on the practical merits of the sex-industry couldn't be improved. I doubt a more sober view could be expressed. However, the Book of Mormon as does Mormonism strictly condemns without qualification the "sex industry". And it's these teachings which urge the Church to seek out strong measures to enforce their morality wholesale on society. In other words, if the Church succeeded in bringing about the vision of the Book of Mormon, according to your logic, rape and sexual assult cases would shoot through the roof. And I'm left wondering, why on earth you would love such a book with all your heart.

And I've seen their human side (the "workers"), and I've seen how they are relagated to scum, by the very people who visit them. Now THAT is hypocrisy.

...as long as they don't have to live with the object of their fantasy

Sounds an awful lot like the "Madonna-Whore" complex Mr. Scratch described.

[_The Nehor]

Scratch

As I've noted, *I* am not the one who has any problem with the sex trade, per se.

No, you use sex workers as weapons with which to disparage others.

Well, now, this is quite interesting! Who knew that, in addition to his violent outbursts, he was also hooking up with a Lady (or child?) of the Night

I mean, can you imagine the likes of charity warming up to someone who was banging a drug-addled girl like you were?

What is it you feel the need to defend? These sex workers, or the fact that you had "relations" with them?

Well done, Ray. In fact, I invite you to head on over to MAD in order to wax poetic about your "sessions" with these various sex workers.

Maybe you aren't ashamed, but I am willing to bet that you don't want certain people to know about your "predilections."

This is what I found crude about your post Scratch though perhaps crass is a better description. Thanks to Jersey Girl for compiling.

[_The Nehor]

This entire thread is a personal attack.

I respectfully disagree. While a part of the thread could legitimately be construed as a "personal" attack, I think that the real substance underneath everything is an "attack" on the hypocrisy of Ray's position. Why don't you weigh in on the real issue, Nehor? Is it possible (and rhetorically feasible) to love both prostitution and the Book of Mormon?

Scratch gets information on a poster. He posts this information with the intent to malign said poster.

So, you think that mention of Ray's relationship w/ sex workers "maligns" him? Or them? Or who, exactly? Does it malign him because you agree with the Book of Mormon, and its assertion that prostitution and "whoredoms" are bad? Go ahead and weigh in, Nehor. I can't wait to hear your thoughts on this.

No, I don't think that Ray's relationship with sex workers maligns him. I do think your crude references (before you wisely edited them) showed that you thought it maligned him.

Thought it "maligned him" in whose eyes, Nehor? I *do* think it maligns him in the eyes of TBMs such as yourself. (And by the way: what, exactly, did you find "crude" about the references? Feel free to be specific.) And yet, oddly, here you are claiming that his relationship with sex workers is a-okay. Can you point me to the portion of LDS doctrine that sanctions this view? Would you be up for a romp with a sex worker yourself?

I don't think Ray loves prostitution.

Well, hopefully he'll rejoin us and answer this question. Although he initially tried to portray himself as being very sensitive to the whole issue, I suspect that there is more to this than meets the eye.

That whole 'love the sin and not the sinner' thing might come into play here. Can one love the Book of Mormon and prostitutes. If you assume that God inspired the authorship of the Book of Mormon then you can check yes next to the two greatest commandments according to the Messiah.

Which "greatest commandments" are you referring to?

Love the Lord thy God.

Love thy Neighbor as thyself.

Be careful Scratch. If you spread gossip about Ray he might find his position in Apologetics at risk. He might not be able to work in the field. And then poor Quinn...oops, I mean Ray, will be the target of a vicious smear campaign orchestrated by the mastermind Scratch. Won't that weigh on DCP's....I mean your conscience? ;)

I've worked with prostitutes before. What many of them need is to be seen as human again. I don't condone Ray's extramarital affair but I don't judge it more harshly than if he'd slept with the girl next door or with a co-worker.

You seem to want to discredit Ray. That is your goal in general. If you read your blog it is almost never about Apologetic arguments. It is about the people. It reads more like a soap opera than an academic study of anything at all. Don't get me wrong. I am often entertained by it. It can just get very malicious.

If you want me to tell Ray that extramarital sex is bad then okay

To Ray:

Extramarital sex is a sin before God and should be repented of.

I don't see why or how it matters to you or to his standing. From everything I've read Ray is a defender of the LDS faith but struggles with aspects of it....just like everyone else. Including me. My struggles are very different but having screwed up before gives you sympathy for those who struggle as well. I hope he can overcome them. You're not a part of that solution Scratch. You want to hit Ray not because of what he says here but because of who he is. Motes and beams everywhere and only one can see clearly enough to pluck them out.

[_The Nehor]

I disagree with Moniker's position that sex workers who take joy in using men is some kind of victory. Replacing 'men using women' with 'women using men' does not seem like progress. Give me a real relationship any day.

You mistake my position, Nehor. I said that many women consider themselves in charge and believe they are empowered by taking from men. Clearly, both parties are taking from one another. Which takes more from the other would be the natural question. I've yet to find the answer to that question for myself -- and will likely never do so.

Sorry for misreading.

[_Ray A]

And I'm left wondering, why on earth you would love such a book with all your heart.

And I'm left wondering why you oppose it?

Sounds an awful lot like the "Madonna-Whore" complex Mr. Scratch described.

Sounds like you're in bed with Scratch.

[Guest]

...as long as they don't have to live with the object of their fantasy

Sounds an awful lot like the "Madonna-Whore" complex Mr. Scratch described.

I'd say most men that enjoy these women and proclaim their love (many do) and yet go home and snuggle up to their wives suffer from this complex. Doesn't really sound to me that Ray has this complex. He doesn't shame these women, harass them, tell them he can't deal with their past or any of the other nonsense men come up with when finally confronted with the realization that there is a human being behind the fantasy.

Just so anyone reading this thread is clear, I was never a prostitute but did work in the sex industry. As such I knew many of these women. Also was friends with quite a few young men that were in the trade. Men from all segments of society, economic spheres, and professions visit these women.

Anyway... I don't like men too much right now. :(

[_Ray A]

I also note the thread title change. I am no longer a "pimp-daddy". Whatever I am, it matters not. Whatever I say, it matters not to anti and ex-Mormons, with few exceptions. I will be demonised and scrutinised to kingdom come, for one reason, and one reason only - because I believe in their (Mormons) right to exist, to believe, and to live and teach, as they please. Everything I say, do, think, will be scrutinised by anti-Mormons, and they will look for every loophole to expose me as a hypocrite. Deep water is what I am wont to swim in. It's useless trying to explain myself, because every and any word I say, will be turned against me.

I stand by my friends, and they don't judge me. I love them because of who they are, not what they believe. I would readily defend a Mormon, as I would anyone with a heart.

Scratch has no heart.

And, oh, I love the women who have been in my life, because they have been true and honest with me. Maybe that's why I don't like "yes-women" who agree with you, put on a facade of morality and uprightness, then betray you. My beautiful "whores" have never betrayed me. Ever. And may God bless them for having that integrity. I wouldn't trade their friendship for anything in the world. I was married to a Mormon for 22 years, but I found love and trust in women rejected by society.

[_Bond...James Bond]

Anyway... I don't like men too much right now. :(

Good thing I scheduled that sex change...


(Alright...not really. But you thought I did for a sec didn't you?)

[_Moniker]

Anyway... I don't like men too much right now. :(

Good thing I scheduled that sex change...


(Alright...not really. But you thought I did for a sec didn't you?)

Nah bond, you're just about the perfect male in my estimation. Don't change a thing. :)