Ray A: A Mormon 'John'?

[_Jason Bourne]

Yes, it doesn't make any sense. As much as Jason Bourne, and Trevor, and others want to see this as a purely personal "attack" thread, I *do* genuinely believe there are worthwhile, discussion-worthy ideological issues at play underneath everything, and I too am curious about this (additional) apparent hypocrisy at the center of Ray A's argumentative persona.

It is a personal attack. Like most of your threads here. Wrap it up in anyway you want it to make yourself feel better. It is still a personal attack and speaks badly of you.

[_Ray A]

No... Ray can think whatever he pleases. Likewise, I can criticize whatever I please. In this case, I find his "straddling the fence" to by hypocritical, especially in light of the fact that he is defending such an absolutist institution as the LDS Church, hence my critique of such.

Do you straddle the fence? Your views are so convoluted I don't know how you can talk about me.

If you really wanted to be consistent with all of your criticisms of the Church, the "absolutist institution" which you constantly attack, then you should resign from the Church. It's sort of like George Bush saying the Republican party is riddled with lies and corruption. Or the Pope saying the Catholic Church isn't really inspired.

If you disagree with an institution, then you should resign from it. Your muddled notion of "perfecting the Saints", is one I am certain few if any TBMs would agree with.

Or, stop calling others with "convoluted views" hypocrites.

[_marg]

It is a personal attack. Like most of your threads here. Wrap it up in anyway you want it to make yourself feel better. It is still a personal attack and speaks badly of you.

Well some people do deserve to be negatively judged, do deserve to be criticized. Let's put Ray's actions into perspective. He currently is about 55 years old.

According to him, about 5 years ago he took into his home and helped out a young 22 year old pretty woman. He says they were like soul mates. What sort of man, takes a woman into his home, more than half his age, a woman who is emotionally and financially bankrupt, who is dependent on heroin? Well one would think a very charitable man, but unfortunately we can not assume that when Ray admits he had sex occasionally with this young pretty woman he so generously was helping. The picture changes with his actions.

So I do judge Ray negatively. In essence he's a poor thinker, poor decision maker. It is no surprise he thinks the Book of Mormon is god inspired. It's no surprise he seeks to impress women half his age.

[_Ray A]

Well some people do deserve to be negatively judged, do deserve to be criticized. Let's put Ray's actions into perspective. He currently is about 55 years old.

According to him, about 5 years ago he took into his home and helped out a young 22 year old pretty woman. He says they were like soul mates. What sort of man, takes a woman into his home, more than half his age, a woman who is emotionally and financially bankrupt, who is dependent on heroin? Well one would think a very charitable man, but unfortunately we can not assume that when Ray admits he had sex occasionally with this young pretty woman he so generously was helping. The picture changes with his actions.

So I do judge Ray negatively. In essence he's a poor thinker, poor decision maker. It is no surprise he thinks the Book of Mormon is god inspired. It's no surprise he seeks to impress women half his age.

Some of you are very out of touch with today's realities. Age differences mean little, and I'm not 55. At the time I was 46, and she was 21. No one would raise an eyebrow about that today (maybe "only in America"?). She lived with me for two weeks, because she asked if she could, as she had no where to go and would have ended up sleeping on park benches. Cool, huh? When she found a place she moved out, by agreement.

The only motive I had at the time was her well-being. Of course, you wouldn't believe that, and frankly, I don't care what you believe because you can't read my mind.

[_Ray A]

So I do judge Ray negatively. In essence he's a poor thinker, poor decision maker. It is no surprise he thinks the Book of Mormon is god inspired. It's no surprise he seeks to impress women half his age.

What does the Book of Mormon have to do with any of this? This shows that you are a poor thinker, and a biased one, in this regard.

[_Ray A]

Ray's stance on all of this reminds me of the sort of politician who berates porn, the sex industry, and so forth as things that "undermine values," and yet who sleeps with prostitutes on the side. Know what I mean? Something just doesn't add up there. I vote that Ray keep his friendships with these women, and ditch his defense of Mormonism. That's my position. His defense of the latter would seem to undermine the former, but that's just my .02.

Hey, I'm not a member of the Church, and there's a reason for that. I don't tell people to not drink alcohol, swear, or not have sex. I do not defend polygamy. I do not defend Book of Mormon historicity. I don't defend tithing. I don't defend most Mormon beliefs. However, I do not attack them, either. It is mainly the vitriol and incessant attacks I'm against, from people who want Mormons to change! Often people who have no investment in Mormonism, and left it many years ago. Now how's that for hypocrisy?

[_Ray A]

That's not true. And I call reverse demonization. I also think Mormons have a right to exist, believe and teach as they please. I would also defend their right on the matter, and I'm confident Scratch would defend them too, he'd probably step up before I would.

Do you really believe this? Let's see. I invite you into my home, you arrive and start telling me my furniture is out of date, improperly arranged, my dog needs a bath, my curtains are the wrong colour, and I should serve you gin and tonic, not just orange juice.

If I show you the door, would you object?

[_Ray A]

For the record again, I clearly stated I'm not accusing you of being a hypocrite, in this case. I just don't see the compatibility between two apparent belief sets you have.

That's fine, but do you see anything incompatible with Scratch's position?

Note that as a group, ex-Mormons who open their mouths have been judged pretty harshly by yourself.

And ex-Mormons never judge Mormons.

[_Ray A]

Ray is most certainly free to "work out his worldview" on a message board. What he said four years ago only has relevance to his current beliefs if he still believes them I suppose, and that's kind of where I think the thread is heading. Whether his past posts should be dug into and brought to light, well, I suppose that depends, in this case I don't see the problem. I mean, it's stuff he said frankly on a subject he himself brought up, with no signs up being upset, unstable or angry. Four years might seem like a long time, but if you consider people talk about the beliefs or actions of other people who wrote books 10, 20, or 50 years ago as if it's still relevant in some way, then that kind of puts it into perspective.

Sure, but why is this relevant now? Does Scratch go searching Kevin Graham's former TBM defenses of Mormonism with the aim of discrediting him? Do even Mormons do that??????

[_Ray A]

In the LDS Church? Yes. Mormonism is an absolutist religion. As BKP said, "In the Church we are not neutral. We are one-sided. There is a war going on, and we are engaged in it." (From "The Mantle is Far, Far Greater than the Intellect")

So let's see, if there's no neutrality in the Church, and you are a member (?), what does that make you? You "love the Church" in a very strange way. It's like saying, "darling, I love you, but before we marry I want you to dye your hair blonde, have a face-lift, never wear one-piece swim suits, only visit your mother once a year, and only eat the brands of food I like".