Ray A wrote: How well do you read? Did I ever say I wasn't a client? Your whole gist in this post is, once again, to try to discredit the Book of Mormon. I sometimes wonder if I'm even sane when I read stuff like this, and the ends some of you will go to discredit the Book of Mormon.
by the way...you ask yourself a good question, whether you are sane or not. I'm not sure about "insanity" but you are mentally challenged, tis not your fault. And yes, you did say you were not a client, when you took her into your home. You also said you later met and both discussed you were likely soulmates. How sweet! That poor girl. She's got enough problems as it is without adding you to them. Ray, only desperate women of the age of 21 go after men more than twice their age who have little to offer them.
You wrote: "In the case of the girl concerned, I gave her a home when she didn't have one, gave her money, clothes, food, without expecting "sexual services" (though that did happen occasionally, but not as "payment for services", and I was single and divorced), and my main concern was for her welfare, and a wish for her to escape drug-dependency and prostitution. "
My whole gist by the way is not to discredit the Book of Mormon as you claim. I know that is a man created fictional story having nothing to do with a supreme being. But the connection is there Ray, your poor decision making re women, re the Book of Mormon, your poor thinking. It's all part of your mental abilities and hence it's no surprise you hold the looney idea the Book of Mormon is divinely inspired despite all the studying you've done.
I must wonder what it means of all those critics of the Book of Mormon that like vulnerable women half their age? Hmm... maybe it's more about men being horny and attracted to young women then it has to do with any religion? I think so.
That's fine, but do you see anything incompatible with Scratch's position?
The problem is, I don't really know what Scratch's views are on the church, so I can't say.
And ex-Mormons never judge Mormons.
Of course they do. I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with either judging either. You seem to think that affirming someones right to believe something also means respecting the belief. I don't.
Sure, but why is this relevant now? Does Scratch go searching Kevin Graham's former TBM defenses of Mormonism with the aim of discrediting him? Do even Mormons do that??????
Kevin Graham apparently no longer believes many of the things he did years ago. So it wouldn't be relevant. Now, if you are to tell me that your views on sex and so on have changed greatly since that thread many years ago, then I'll equally admit, in fact, I'll even publicly tell Scratch that this looks like a dead end.
You're the one using scare quotes. Some of these women find it empowering to take money from men and twittering behind their backs at what suckers they are. Surely, you know this? Some of these women string men along for years and take from them. Let's not just make broad generalizations about these women that
I guess the beauty of Mormonism is that women can do this without even having sex with the men they string along. Indeed it's very empowering, far more economically empowering than being able to bench press 400lbs or even calculate the path of the electron . That's why women have the balance of power shifted in their favor. I didn't hate the women who used their power this way near as much as I hate the society I live in that teaches them that this is right and good.
Now I feel sorry for these people because regardless of what socioeconomic system you live in, whether you are taught that slaves should be abused, or that its ok to mistreat people when you're the boss, or that fathers should have no rights, justice does not always pardon us because we were taught false ideas. We all have a responsibility to learn the truth and live by it.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
Sure, but why is this relevant now? Does Scratch go searching Kevin Graham's former TBM defenses of Mormonism with the aim of discrediting him? Do even Mormons do that??????
Kevin Graham apparently no longer believes many of the things he did years ago. So it wouldn't be relevant. Now, if you are to tell me that your views on sex and so on have changed greatly since that thread many years ago, then I'll equally admit, in fact, I'll even publicly tell Scratch that this looks like a dead end.
My gosh, Gad. Ray is under no obligation to anyone on this board to discuss further his views regarding sex or the Book of Mormon. Of course it's a dead end. How could it be anything but a dead end? If not a dead end, what possible outcomes do you see to this discourse?
You're the one using scare quotes. Some of these women find it empowering to take money from men and twittering behind their backs at what suckers they are. Surely, you know this? Some of these women string men along for years and take from them. Let's not just make broad generalizations about these women that
I guess the beauty of Mormonism is that women can do this without even having sex with the men they string along. Indeed it's very empowering, far more economically empowering than being able to bench press 400lbs or even calculate the path of the electron . That's why women have the balance of power shifted in their favor. I didn't hate the women who used their power this way near as much as I hate the society I live in that teaches them that this is right and good.
Now I feel sorry for these people because regardless of what socioeconomic system you live in, whether you are taught that slaves should be abused, or that its ok to mistreat people when you're the boss, or that fathers should have no rights, justice does not always pardon us because we were taught false ideas. We all have a responsibility to learn the truth and live by it.
Ajax, you really don't like women very much, do you? Do you really think women that sell their bodies, their youth, their beauty, for a momentary gain of money don't often times lose self-respect, self-worth, dignity? Are they really empowered? Or, perhaps, most women that choose to do this profession learn to hate men, learn to wrap the situation into a position of power? I don't really know the answers -- I do know that many say it's empowering while they're in a cycle of abuse, find abusive men to tell them how worthless they are, and loathe themselves.
You equating women that work in the sex-industry to women that you deem teases is interesting to me.
Ray - just join me at the wierd club - it's okay to be wierd in this world. Mormon's don't like wierd people beause they have an image to protect but there is no need to defend yourself from an I-don't-go-to-church crew. I understand that everyone is territorial - this is normal. Some see beauty in a lot of things. Some see it in the Book of Mormon and other's can see the same beauty inside the soul of another human being. The main thing that got me into trouble with the church was exhanging money for sex. I was nineteen, was home early from my mission - drove past girls walking the street when driving at work and finally decided that since I was pretty much being treated as a failure in the eyes my ward that I had nothing to lose. I was honest about what was happening and was excommunicated. Then, these girls were my only friends. As I get older I see that it is a tragedy when these things happen. I guess water seeks it's own level. As I look back at my friends who were to afraid to go to the Church when they did things - I feel sorry for them. As I look back it was tragedy that I was excommunicated. If I was the head of the Church I would stop excommunicating teenagers - it only adds to the problems and creates a great deal of shame. It's interesting that the Church is more concerned with a person's sex life than if that person is violent. This I don't understand. Maybe sexual sin is next to murder but it's like the distance between the galaxy we live in and the the next galaxy and we would never get there in our life time where sexual sin is right within walking distance of theft and less likely serious than physical violence. Sorry for the run on but I just want to say that it's okay to be weird and to be the outcast. I've come to accept this and sometimes would not want it any other way.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Dec 24, 2007 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I’ve refrained from commenting much on this thread for a couple of reasons, but I’m going to give my opinion on a couple of issues.
I don’t think Ray has been a hypocrite in regards to his lifestyle. He’s always been open about his “pagan lifestyle”. I was shocked when I first read this, but then when I read the entire Z link saw that I had been exposed to this before and had commented on the thread. So it’s something I was once aware of but forgot. I was most likely shocked to read it back then, too. I guess I’ve lived a sheltered life in a way, although I sowed plenty of wild oats in my time.
But as far as I know, Ray’s never been a hypocrite about his belief in the Book of Mormon as inspired scripture, although he’s wavered in terms of actual historicity. It’s not hypocrisy to actually believe that certain behavior is preferable, even if one is not adhering to that behavior, as long as the individual is not chastising or demonizing others for failing to live to this standard at the same time. I haven’t seen Ray doing that, in terms of this behavior. He has definitely done that in regards to other behavior, which I’ll mention later.
In regards to taking advantage of young women, yes, absolutely that can happen. But like moniker, I don’t think this has a strong correlation to religious belief or lack thereof. If two people are in a sexual relationship where there is a great imbalance of power, then it’s far more likely that someone is being taken advantage of - but even then, it’s not absolute. So I’m not going to join in on insisting that Ray demonstrated poor behavior with this young woman. I have no idea if he did or did not. Even if he did, are there many among us that haven’t, at times, demonstrated poor judgment when it comes to sex? By god, I have. And, by the way, when monkeys still had her blog up I saw some statements from male members of this site that I wanted to smack them over, because I thought they were teetering on the edge of trying to take advantage of a woman in a desperate situation, too.
What I do think this demonstrates is that Ray is fooling himself about what he admires in women. When women – or men – stand up to him online, he tends to go ballistic and volatile. Perhaps he is so used to “being” that way – some people are brought up to react that way to challenges - that he doesn’t even recognize it as problematic. And it goes without saying that behavior you can’t tolerate in others are far more tolerable in an individual whom you sexually desire.
I do think it’s indisputable that Ray behaved like a huge hypocrite when he ranted and raved on MAD about “dorks who threaten to kill missionaries” and how seriously we ought to take those threats, while omitting the important information that he had been just one of those dorks, himself, and now assures us he wasn’t serious. I also think DCP is a hypocrite when he’s only too happy to ignore this reality, when he, along with Ray, have decided that exmormon polemics are a serious threat that may cause some sort of future Mormon holocaust.
But in this particular instance, no, I don’t think he’s behaving like a hypocrite. And yes, I agree with those who think this particular issue is a dead end.
Last edited by Tator on Mon Dec 24, 2007 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
Sure, but why is this relevant now? Does Scratch go searching Kevin Graham's former TBM defenses of Mormonism with the aim of discrediting him? Do even Mormons do that??????
Kevin Graham apparently no longer believes many of the things he did years ago. So it wouldn't be relevant. Now, if you are to tell me that your views on sex and so on have changed greatly since that thread many years ago, then I'll equally admit, in fact, I'll even publicly tell Scratch that this looks like a dead end.
My gosh, Gad. Ray is under no obligation to anyone on this board to discuss further his views regarding sex or the Book of Mormon. Of course it's a dead end. How could it be anything but a dead end? If not a dead end, what possible outcomes do you see to this discourse?
I've recast my interests in this thread in another thread I've just created. I don't think I can any more clear, so I'll restate one final time and leave the rest for the other thread if Ray so chooses to respond. Ray says he will defend the Book of Mormon (the book, not the monkey) until the day he dies. He doesn't think it's true history. So somehow the teachings must really inspire him. Yet, the ideology on morality in the Book of Mormon starkly contrasts with his liberal views on the sex industry, rather dramatically. In fact, if what he says is true about the necessity of the sex industry to keep males from rape and sex assaults, then what we ought to fear most in this world is religions like Mormonism pushing the agenda of the Book of Mormon (the book, not the primate) and eradicating access to sex services. If I believed like Ray in this instance, I'd be even more anti-Mormon than I am now.