The Book of Mormon - What's in it for Ray?

[_Gadianton]

To me that's like asking "which parts of your wife do you like best?" It's an experience, a strong spiritual experience, similar to what beastie described earlier in another thread. The difference between us is that I believe my experience was a spiritual manifestation from God.

Interesting, um, way to put it considering how the conversation has been going. Anyway, I guess that answers it, you had a powerful experience. Lo and behold, no one guessed the obvious including me. lol.

Ho ho ho ho ho, Merry Christmas, Ray.

[_Inconceivable]

Thanks Ray, I always look forward to spending time with veterans. In my line of work I've been fortunate to converse with many. They deserve our admiration, respect and our heartfelt gratitude.

Off topic here, but I gotta say that the angriest WWII vets I ever met were the old blokes stumbling out of the bars in Victoria. Seems every time they caught our eye they'd lambast us yanks for stealing their girlfriends. I can appreciate that as it must have been devastating to some of these young men who gave all they had and to find the Yanks got to the docks first. On the other hand, I've met several Yank vets in Arizona with Aussie wives. We'd have a chuckle when I'd say, "I sure took a lot of crap for what you guys did".

[_Ray A]

Thanks Ray, I always look forward to spending time with veterans. In my line of work I've been fortunate to converse with many. They deserve our admiration, respect and our heartfelt gratitude.

Off topic here, but I gotta say that the angriest WWII vets I ever met were the old blokes stumbling out of the bars in Victoria. Seems every time they caught our eye they'd lambast us yanks for stealing their girlfriends. I can appreciate that as it must have been devastating to some of these young men who gave all they had and to find the Yanks got to the docks first. On the other hand, I've met several Yank vets in Arizona with Aussie wives. We'd have a chuckle when I'd say, "I sure took a lot of crap for what you guys did".

I often hear these stories, and find them amusing. It still happens, Incon. When a US navy ship arrives in Sydney, the Aussie girls still go "goo-gaa". LOL.

[_Ray A]

Actually I don't think Ray is infatuated by the content of the Book of Mormon at all. I think he's playing a sort of Pascal's Wager game where he's not living the LDS lifestyle, but he's betting that in the End, if the Mormons are right, his playing the role of Defender of the Faith will count for something. At least, that's my read on it.

This read is incorrect, Seth, but I know this idea is common. Of course I wouldn't object if there was some truth in that, that somehow "if it's true" I could get a providential pardon. My views about an afterlife are not formed entirely by the Book of Mormon, though it does provide some interesting circumstantial support. For example, it says that we will have a "bright recollection" of everything we ever even thought, and this is what the vast majority of those who have had NDEs state, even down to the guilt factor. Not only that, they say we will also feel what others felt when we hurt them. If this sounds startling, remember it's not coming from the Mormon canon - but from extensive research over some 30-plus years, and thousands of detailed interviews. It's hard to ignore the Book of Mormon when I see these parallels. But if you care to study this phenomenon, you'll see that the scriptures don't contain "the full story". They are admonitions and warnings, but I don't believe in a literal hell, any more than Mormons do, though the Book of Mormon says there is one. So I wonder whether even Mormons "literally believe the Book of Mormon".

[_aussieguy55]

There is a book about the presence of American soldiers in Australia during WWII. Its called oversexed, overpaid and overhere. The American soldiers had more money/access to stockings, chocolates etc to give the ladies. Also the Americans had better teeth. Apparently the dental health of Aussie men was not good. I worked in a government building in Brisbane. Opposite there was a lane in which an American black soldier was shot by MP. The Afro-Americans were supposed to stay on the south side of Brisbane accross the bridge. This unfortunate man did not stay. A work collegue who lived as a teen during the war told me that when the American soldiers were sent on leave they would get in one hand their money and the other a bunch of condoms.

[_Inconceivable]

My views about an afterlife are not formed entirely by the Book of Mormon, though it does provide some interesting circumstantial support. For example.. "bright recollection" of everything we ever even thought, and this is what the vast majority of those who have had NDEs state, even down to the guilt factor. Not only that, they say we will also feel what others felt when we hurt them. If this sounds startling, remember it's not coming from the Mormon canon - but from extensive research over some 30-plus years, and thousands of detailed interviews. It's hard to ignore the Book of Mormon when I see these parallels. But if you care to study this phenomenon, you'll see that the scriptures don't contain "the full story". They are admonitions and warnings, but I don't believe in a literal hell, any more than Mormons do, though the Book of Mormon says there is one. So I wonder whether even Mormons "literally believe the Book of Mormon".

When a TBM, I was a literalist concerning the Book of Mormon. But even then there were so many dichotomys that I was left confused from reading the "most correct of any book, the keystone of the religeon and that man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts than by any other book".

I am quite intrigued by the NDE. I'm surprised it is not taken more seriously by many here. I muse that one life may not be enough to experience/develop empathy, love and the other quality human attributes. Ray, I would be interested in if you would like to begin a more serious thread specifically to that subject.

In some ways the jury is still out on the Book of Mormon for me. I know it was not written by Joseph Smith. He was truly a trunk slamming fraud. Then who was it assembled by? It doesn't read like a Tolkien novel by any means. It has much relating to a philosophy of kindness and love (mingled with some real stupid junk). I've taught it and feasted upon it all of my life. I'll still lean toward the story I imagine of an old wise man beaten by Smith and thrown under a bus after he was robbed of the record. Who knows.

I don't believe it is an infallible document. There are just too many major mispeaks. Such as who we ask forgiveness from, God the Father or Jesus - the book says Jesus, the church says God. Whether this life is only time to prepare to meet God or not - the Book of Mormon says it is, Smith testified that children of righteous parents have eternity to conform. Does Jesus hunt down covenant breakers and place stumbling blocks and hedge up their ways - the book says yes, the church says, probably yes too.

[_beastie]

So, Ray, the most important thing about the Book of Mormon was that it provoked this intense spiritual event in you, and the content is more open to debate? What I'm trying to say is that viewing the Book of Mormon as sacred scripture doesn't require you to accept all its teachings, in your view. Is that correct? And while you view some of its teachings as positive and noteworthy, as do the rest of us, your fervent defense and devotion to it are entirely based on your testimonial event prompted by it?

[_the road to hana]

Who was he? I don't know, and that's why I've called him "The Unknown Soldier".

Merry Christmas, and be thankful for life, because no matter how tough it gets, someone has done it much tougher than you have.


They shall not grow old as we who are left grow old.
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning,
WE WILL REMEMBER THEM.


Ray.

Very nice, Ray. Appreciate the veterans of World War II. When they're gone, they're gone.

[_Ray A]

So, Ray, the most important thing about the Book of Mormon was that it provoked this intense spiritual event in you, and the content is more open to debate? What I'm trying to say is that viewing the Book of Mormon as sacred scripture doesn't require you to accept all its teachings, in your view. Is that correct?

That is correct.

And while you view some of its teachings as positive and noteworthy, as do the rest of us, your fervent defense and devotion to it are entirely based on your testimonial event prompted by it?

Not at all. I don't think the Brother of Jared literally removed a mountain. I don't think Nephi could see over 2,000 years into the future. I do see some very close parallels to afterlife and NDE studies. I see expansions on biblical themes which I find very informative. As far back as the early 1980s I suggested to Robert Smith, in private correspondence, about me writing an article titled "An Intellectual Approach to the Book of Mormon", an idea that interested Robert at the time but he couldn't, apparently, see how this could be framed. I think the Book of Mormon is a mine of information to be explored, but I don't believe all of it should be taken literally. So it's not just some fuzzy notion based only on "feeling". I think it deserves its place among sacred scriptures of the world, and not everyone is going to agree with that. As I've said, the key to understanding my approach to the Book of Mormon, is to understand Jefferson's approach to the Bible. That is a point few have cared to investigate.