guy sajer wrote:I bit my lip but I would like to have asked "so what makes Pavarotti worse than Joseph Smith?"
Why did you bite your lip? I would've loved to hear their reaction.
Perhaps he has TACT and perhaps he did not want the deal with the ensuing battle. Do you have believing family? Do you throw out bomb shells like this?
Well let me tell you, one night when the Warren Jeffs verdict was out on the news my wife went on and on about how awful he was and how he should have got more then the sentence gave. I tried to subtly point out some of the things that just a little itty bit might be similar to what Joseph Smith did...and WOE....it did not go well.
Sometimes in some situation things are better left unsaid.
Now, a PS to this is I think later my wife is thinking and mulling some of this over. But she really gets mad at me when she does and tells my I am stealing her faith away. And honestly I do feel pretty rotten about it.
Interesting. How is that stealing her faith away? Put it to her this way: Let's say that she was brought up in a false religion like the Catholic church. And lets say that two missionaries came to her door and discussed the apostasy with her and convinced her that the Pope never had the priesthood to begin with. Then lets say she began feeling bad because her faith in the Pope was being shaken. Would she feel sorry for herself in this alternative universe? (and would you?) Wouldn't she think that her alternative self needed to know the truth, no matter how hard it was to come to grips with? And if so, why apply a double standard to her real self?
Interesting. How is that stealing her faith away? Put it to her this way: Let's say that she was brought up in a false religion like the Catholic church. And lets say that two missionaries came to her door and discussed the apostasy with her and convinced her that the Pope never had the priesthood to begin with. Then lets say she began feeling bad because her faith in the Pope was being shaken. Would she feel sorry for herself in this alternative universe? (and would you?) Wouldn't she think that her alternative self needed to know the truth, no matter how hard it was to come to grips with? And if so, why apply a double standard to her real self?
Well this is not an invalid point. And she is a convert from a protestant faith. I am not sure. I try to share some of the things I find troubling and she has gotten angry. At times she says her testimony is not what it used to be because of me and all my questions. I think she has some doubts because of my questions and doubts. I do feel bad about is and she is good at trying to make me feel bad. But at the risk of sounding rather mean, my dear wife's gospel knowledge has always been fairly cursory, limited to missionary discussion, SS lessons and Relief Society lessons. She has read few even pro LDS topic books, reads little in the scriptures, etc. She believes the Church because she thinks what she knows makes sense, she also is very much into the pragmatic side as to what it brings her and has brought her as far as living a happy religious life and raising her children that way as well as having a somewhat decent hubby that is devoted to her and the her religion and never wavered at all until the last few year. Make sense?
guy sajer wrote:I bit my lip but I would like to have asked "so what makes Pavarotti worse than Joseph Smith?"
Why did you bite your lip? I would've loved to hear their reaction.
Perhaps he has TACT and perhaps he did not want the deal with the ensuing battle. Do you have believing family? Do you throw out bomb shells like this?
Well let me tell you, one night when the Warren Jeffs verdict was out on the news my wife went on and on about how awful he was and how he should have got more then the sentence gave. I tried to subtly point out some of the things that just a little itty bit might be similar to what Joseph Smith did...and WOE....it did not go well.
Sometimes in some situation things are better left unsaid.
Now, a PS to this is I think later my wife is thinking and mulling some of this over. But she really gets mad at me when she does and tells my I am stealing her faith away. And honestly I do feel pretty rotten about it.
Saying something would not have gone over well. I wouldn't have made them stop and think in the least. It would only have angered them. I was got into an argument with my FIL over the Church's non-transparent finances (I think that the lack of financial transparency is unethical), and that was a big mistake. I vowed not to repeat it. My in-laws a good people, they do a lot for us, my FIL particularly is the most generous man I know. If they were interested in my views, they'd have asked me, which they have not bothered to do yet. I'm content to let them believe what they want. It does me no harm and it promotes harmonious relationships.
I suspect they know about Joseph Smith's many wives, though probably have't given much thought to the sex angle of it, nor are they inclined to. They are smart people but do not appear to me to be much inclined to reflect critically on their religious beliefs.
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
guy sajer wrote:I bit my lip but I would like to have asked "so what makes Pavarotti worse than Joseph Smith?"
Why did you bite your lip? I would've loved to hear their reaction.
Perhaps he has TACT and perhaps he did not want the deal with the ensuing battle. Do you have believing family? Do you throw out bomb shells like this?
Well let me tell you, one night when the Warren Jeffs verdict was out on the news my wife went on and on about how awful he was and how he should have got more then the sentence gave. I tried to subtly point out some of the things that just a little itty bit might be similar to what Joseph Smith did...and WOE....it did not go well.
Sometimes in some situation things are better left unsaid.
Now, a PS to this is I think later my wife is thinking and mulling some of this over. But she really gets mad at me when she does and tells my I am stealing her faith away. And honestly I do feel pretty rotten about it.
Interesting. How is that stealing her faith away? Put it to her this way: Let's say that she was brought up in a false religion like the Catholic church. And lets say that two missionaries came to her door and discussed the apostasy with her and convinced her that the Pope never had the priesthood to begin with. Then lets say she began feeling bad because her faith in the Pope was being shaken. Would she feel sorry for herself in this alternative universe? (and would you?) Wouldn't she think that her alternative self needed to know the truth, no matter how hard it was to come to grips with? And if so, why apply a double standard to her real self?
Thus it is ever so with the believers. Persuading other people to abandon their beliefs and traditions to adopt Mormonism is celebrated. Persuading, or even trying to persuade, Mormons to abandon their beliefs and traditions is condemned. Truth, and the validity of the search for it, cuts only one way and ends at only one destination.
Then again, believers are not likely to spend much time critically reflecting on this either.
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
Pavarotti is divine. Even if he had as many women as Chamberlain, it still would not detract from his (what I would consider) godly voice. There are so few things in life that come close to pure divinity.
Did Pavarotti inspire the spirit, by Mormon terms? I would say yes. Test it out for yourself.
Oh, does trinity bring up a good point. the church pushes completely superficial contemplation as the ultimate source of truth. if, knowing nothing about anything Mormon other than two nice guys just showed up at the door and listened to your problems, and after a brief discussion about spirituality and God, and an introduction to a strange book that you've read just a few verses from, if you feel good at all inside about the experience then you've just been convicted by the spirit with sure knowledge that everything about the book is true. Implying it establishes smith as a prophet and the church as his. And whatever you learn after that from study or talking to ther people which bring doubts up, the missionaries will go back to that instance of initial credulity and ask, "how did you feel back than?" And nothing you'll ever be able to say will count against it in their mind.
It would be like Guy asking his relatives, "Wait a second, how did you feel the first time you heard Poverotti?"
"well, good, what a marvelous voice"
"So that means it must have been from God, all good things are from God, right? So Poverotti must have been a great man to be able to make you feel like that"
"well, a great voice but after learning more things about his life.."
"wait a second, go back to the first time you ever heard him. Could you have imagined him as a womanizer?"
"no.."
"And don't you think Satan wants you to believe that something good was really bad? Don't you think he's putting these doubts in your mind? Whenever you read something questionable about Poverotti, no matter what it is, just shut of your thinking and go back to that day when you first heard his magnificant voice!"
JasonBourne Sometimes in some situation things are better left unsaid.
Well, Jayce.... You're wrong, but of course I do have this unfair advantage of being twice of your age. No matter who you deal with, (Your wife, your father, your mom, your Bishop, SP). If you think you stand on solid ground, play your cards always like you do have a winning hand. If you compromise here and there you will lose. Don't be afraid of consequences. Just think for a minute. That is why Joseph Smith lost his life needlesly. Brigham Young made the most of it.
JasonBourne Sometimes in some situation things are better left unsaid.
Well, Jayce.... You're wrong, but of course I do have this unfair advantage of being twice of your age. No matter who you deal with, (Your wife, your father, your mom, your Bishop, SP). If you think you stand on solid ground, play your cards always like you do have a winning hand. If you compromise here and there you will lose. Don't be afraid of consequences. Just think for a minute. That is why Joseph Smith lost his life needlesly. Brigham Young made the most of it.
Dude, lay off the bold font. We can see the regular font just fine.
I may be going to hell in a bucket, babe / But at least I'm enjoying the ride.
-Grateful Dead (lyrics by John Perry Barlow)