Ray A: A Mormon 'John'?

[_Dr. Shades]

So Shades let's say you are single and would like sexual relief. Would you hire a female who sees maybe a minimum of 4 men a day, who hates her job, who is living a horrible life doing prostitution in order to pay for her drug habit. A young desperate girl of 21. And what you get is relief, it takes about 20 minutes, no intimacy. Would you under those circumstances hire the girl?

No, I wouldn't. Not out of some sense of moral outrage, mind you, but as a matter of personal taste. Plus it's against the law.

I've been wondering when they are going to move this to the telestial forum.

Why? No specific sex acts have been (salaciously) described and the posters have graciously refrained from using profanity.

Do I need to remind everyone about the tennis racket scandal at BYU.

Wasn't that just an overblown urban legend?

[_marg]

Many homeless have to be served soft food because of the state of their dental health.

When I refer to a person as a loser in this discussion, I'm not referring to economic status, I'm referring more to stupidity, selfishness, that sort of thing.

marg, I don't understand why you call people losers. When you see homeless people do you just say "loser". If it makes you feel superior - then what ever floats your boat. Everyone has something that makes them feel like they are not worthy to be God's presence. If you don't have one then hang on because you likely will.

When I use the word loser particularly in this thread, I'm referring to a mind set..an attitude. For example I just read Eric Clapton's book and he's a successful individual, but throughout most of his life, based on what he wrote in his book...I think of him with a loser attitude, not too intelligent, a jerk. He's where he is because of a unique marketable talent, good managers, not because he's deserving given the way he's treated people.

[_Moniker]

Why did you continue working in such a place?

Please delete my quote from your post above, Dr. Shades. Thank you. I worked there because I made an incredible amount of money. I averaged about $500 a night -- Sunday afternoons were actually my most lucrative days and would often top over 1K on those days... I was incredibly naïve, reckless, told myself it was empowering, thought I was using these men, and well.... I dunno? Were you a great thinker when you were 18? I wasn't. Sheesh, I'm not so great now -- still working on it.

I DO know I got out. There were women there that knew no other way. Anyway, I wish no one would reply to any more of my posts on this thread. I feel I need to reply to set some sort of record straight -- but I'd rather not have to do so.

[_Ray A]

Here's a few questions for you Ray. Why only 3 times? Why did you stop?

Do you think I'm going to give any more information than I already have? No way marg. Not with predators like Scratch around. I'll defend myself by giving out what information I feel is necessary to do so. I'd be happy do discuss this with anyone, privately, including you, and as long as I knew I could trust that person. I am even prepared to concede a point or two you made, but not while you make such superficial judgements based on a few things I've said in the past, and which Scratch thinks is my "death knell".

What you need to grasp is that people make lifestyle choices, all the time, and often for complex personal reasons that have nothing to do with their intelligence, attractiveness, or "poor ethics". The three women I became involved with had a strong sense of morality, more so than many women I've seen in nightclubs. You will find this odd, but it's not odd to me.

Ray at no time in this discussion have I ever questioned or criticized the women's morality. It's only you I have criticized. I've said they are victims. I'm sure there are some prostitutes that enjoy their job and maybe get paid extremely well. But at the street level I don't think so..and of course those doing so to pay for their drugs are caught up in a vicious horrible circle. It's no way to live. My younger brother's wife from the Ukraine worked as an exotic dancer, my understanding is that the Russion mafia sponsored her to come here. When my brother met her in a club and learned of her story, he helped her get away from the Russian mafia who essentially were controlling her life. My parents allowed her and her girlfriend to live at their home in the basement enabling them to hide from the mafia. At no time since I've known her have I ever thought negatively about her and her work which she has now left. She's an intelligent girl who used the option of becoming an exotic dancer to escape the poverty of her home town. She has a child now with my brother, they married and is a wonderful caring thoughtful person.

One of them even said she found porn "disgusting", and there were many things she refused to do, which men asked her to do. I'm not trying to portray her as a saint, but with the broad brush being used on this thread, I can only echo harmony that the whole thing is sad.

Yes many of the women have an extremely sad pathetic life. But what's really sad is the men who don't have the brains to appreciate the sort of life they have, how the job affects them and who selfishly use them to satisfy their own sexual needs which was never a need in the first place. You didn't need them Ray. And you were like other men, part of their problem. If they couldn't work, they couldn't pay for their drugs. I understand not all prostitutes are drug addicts, but I think a fair number do end up prostituting to pay for drugs. And a good majority of them in the business are treated extremely poorly by the men in general. Many of the women are physically abused. It's not on the whole a rewarding job. Is this not something which occurred to you before hand?

This shows why it's pointless discussing this. ALL of the points you made I've already replied to, and you addressed few, if any of them. I honestly don't think you read, or absorb things very well.

So, you tell me what should become of the "world's oldest profession".

And you tell me whether you believe women never use men in these situations.

Look at how incredibly naïve you are:

If they couldn't work, they couldn't pay for their drugs.

You know who you sound like here with these one-sided, easy-fix solutions to complex human problems? Mary Whitehouse. Ban the problem, and it will go away.

Every human being has "needs and desires", but not every human being has those needs and desires met in an ideal way. Of course we'd all like to have perfect relationships, preferably with soulmates. Failure to do so is not the fault of the person, and many marriages/relationships fail. Physically abusing someone is wrong, because NO woman or man asks for physical abuse. Women do not go asking to be beat up to earn money, but they do offer sex for money, and some of them do enjoy it. Most would like to get out of it, but prefer to earn it this way than slaving away for $10 an hour, and I quote the young girl I saw, one morning when I was driving with her while early morning traffic was lining up: Look at all these suckers going to work to slave for a boss. What kind of life is that?!!"

You haven't the faintest, marg, and I doubt you've ever moved or interacted with people like this.

Last night I took a young man to a brothel, and also took him home. He was a bit self-conscious, as most are, because they have to tell us where they're going. We are always "in" on their little secret. He paid an enormous sum of money for the "service" last night. He's not married, has no girlfriend (as far as I'm aware, but he could have one), and by agreement both parties are satisfied - one gets LOTS of money, and the other spends lots of it to get some temporary satisfaction, with no laws broken. What is this young man supposed to do with his sexual desires? Wait for the perfect mate? Wait for the ideal relationship? Some do, most don't. Should those who don't be judged as "poor critical thinkers"? And how can the women who choose to work in these situations be seen only as victims. We are all victims - of a life that is not always fair and rosy.

Again, I'm not saying this is the ideal, but we don't live in an ideal world.

[_marg]

What is this young man supposed to do with his sexual desires?

He can masturbate because that's about all he does when he hires a prostitute. But then the dummies don't realize that.

[_marg]

I'm not particularly interested in resurrecting this discussion but I feel I need to write a conclusion.

So, you tell me what should become of the "world's oldest profession". [/quote\

Well Ray I didn't intend for this discussion to turn into one regarding the "big picture" on prostitution, my focus was on your actions, your attitudes. Just because other people do things, doesn't mean whatever they do is right. When I asked Shades the question previously, his answer was morally he didn't see anything wrong with prostitution but on principal he wouldn't. Now I didn't ask him on what principles but that is what I found problematic with you, a seeming lack of principles. It's not that sex is wrong between consenting adults even if money is exchanged, not every women is degraded, abused, harmed by prostitution and it's not that one man not hiring a prostitute makes any difference to prostitution in the "big picture". My focus is on you, your attitude, your principles.

I know little about the prostitution industry. You ask me what I'd do with the "world's oldest profession" If it were me, I think I'd make it illegal for men to hire prostitutes. The reason for that is it would decrease demand. The biggest problem I have with prostitution is street prostitution and the women's safety. There are other problems in the bigger picture such as trafficking of poor desperate women from poor countries, such as essentially what happened with my sister-in-law.

While you may not harm a prostitute, it is the nice guys who keep the young women prostituting. If the money is good, ..then they'll do it, not because they necessarily really want to, but solely for the money which they couldn't easily make elsewhere. But it's the nice guys, like yourself, by nice I mean not abusive that keep them in it. Eventually they are likely to come across extremely abusive men. On principle in my view it's just wrong to use street hookers.

I also have a problem with the notion that men who use prostitutes look upon them as commodities. It teaches men to view women as objects to be used.

Now I know there are other environments..legalized tax paying protected environments but I have a feeling these don't decrease street prostitution unless the prices are comparable and I doubt that. I read on the Net that in Nevada the average price hour with a prostitute is about $400. Now in Holland I don't know I'm guessing that prices are more comparable but apparently there is such high demand that women are recruited from other countries, and there is a serious problem with illegal trafficking of women.

And you tell me whether you believe women never use men in these situations.

Hiring a prostitute is a choice men make, if men were being used, they'd quickly stop hiring prostitute or the word would get out if this was a problem. So I don't think that is an issue worth discussing.

Look at how incredibly naïve you are:

If they couldn't work, they couldn't pay for their drugs.

You know who you sound like here with these one-sided, easy-fix solutions to complex human problems? Mary Whitehouse. Ban the problem, and it will go away.

It's all the nice guys Ray that keep women in it..like that one you know who at the age of 21 was hooking to supply her heroin habit. If all the nice guys like you were not so nice and didn't hire her she couldn't do it. Now granted you alone probably would make no difference, but that's not the point. It's the principles involved of appreciating your role, which you didn't display . You are part of the problem.

Every human being has "needs and desires", but not every human being has those needs and desires met in an ideal way. Of course we'd all like to have perfect relationships, preferably with soulmates. Failure to do so is not the fault of the person, and many marriages/relationships fail. Physically abusing someone is wrong, because NO woman or man asks for physical abuse. Women do not go asking to be beat up to earn money, but they do offer sex for money, and some of them do enjoy it. Most would like to get out of it, but prefer to earn it this way than slaving away for $10 an hour, and I quote the young girl I saw, one morning when I was driving with her while early morning traffic was lining up: Look at all these suckers going to work to slave for a boss. What kind of life is that?!!"

That young girl is living a fool's paradise. Of course, people will often choose what seems like the easiest way, but in cases such as this, it's not doing them any good in the long run, if they get into drugs because of the lifestyle they're living, if they get physically abused, if they don't learn marketable skills to work in the mainstream workforce when they no longer can work as a prostitute. And there is something to be said about the value of doing something which isn't personally degrading. While some women may not find it degrading, I have a feeling that servicing many men a day, day after day is bound to be degrading.

You haven't the faintest, marg, and I doubt you've ever moved or interacted with people like this.

Ray it is not about them, it is about you and your principles. I don't have to move with prostitutes to appreciate when you tell me the girl you were with was 21, while you were 49 and she was a heroin addict that this was not a good option for her. Her life was obviously a vicious pathetic circle going nowhere.

Last night I took a young man to a brothel, and also took him home. He was a bit self-conscious, as most are, because they have to tell us where they're going. We are always "in" on their little secret. He paid an enormous sum of money for the "service" last night. He's not married, has no girlfriend (as far as I'm aware, but he could have one), and by agreement both parties are satisfied - one gets LOTS of money, and the other spends lots of it to get some temporary satisfaction, with no laws broken. What is this young man supposed to do with his sexual desires? Wait for the perfect mate? Wait for the ideal relationship? Some do, most don't. Should those who don't be judged as "poor critical thinkers"? And how can the women who choose to work in these situations be seen only as victims. We are all victims - of a life that is not always fair and rosy.

You've said this before..what were you supposed to do and now what is this man supposed to do. I don't think that's a good argument or issue. If the only purpose is sexual release a person can do that themselves. On the whole if no one gets hurt I don't see a problem, but it just seems that women do get hurt, whether it be physical abuse, emotional abuse, drug addiction, lured to other countries and then practically forced into prostitution, it just seems on the whole too many negatives outweigh the positives. And if men on principle didn't participate, lots of those negatives wouldn't be there, because there wouldn't be the pressure as well as opportunity for women to prostitute.

Again, I'm not saying this is the ideal, but we don't live in an ideal world.

For lots of moral issues involving people, my standards are quite high. While I can appreciate men hire prostitutes I don't respect those men. I think prostitution on the whole ends up grossly mistreating too many women, that there are more costs than benefits for women and if any man contributes he's part of the problem. I look upon their behavior as a selfish act that was not necessary.

[_Coggins7]

He can masturbate because that's about all he does when he hires a prostitute. But then the dummies don't realize that.

Interesting point.

[_Gadianton]

uh, sure. it's exactly the same. Even with no love involved, real sex is usually more physically and psychologically satisfying. It's not like every time a married couple go at it they are staring into each others eyes and exchanging eternal vows while Enya is playing in the background.

[_marg]

uh, sure. it's exactly the same. Even with no love involved, real sex is usually more physically and psychologically satisfying. It's not like every time a married couple go at it they are staring into each others eyes and exchanging eternal vows while Enya is playing in the background.

Real sex is not necessarily better. I think what it boils down to is that any sex with a partner who gives off the vibes of not being interested, is mainly just going through the motions, is not much better sometimes worse, than self gratification. But perhaps for men it is a little different with visual being more important than for women and so to heck with whether she's interested. I also think that hired sex is easier for men, less expectations, less work involved..so for any man not in love, no work is a bonus. All in all I can see why men hire prostitutes, I just don't think in most cases it's the morally right thing to do for various reasons.

[_Gadianton]

But perhaps for men it is a little different with visual being more important than for women and so to heck with whether she's interested.

So true. Just as it's also true that women don't necessarily care if their man wanted to work that extra 40 hours of overtime in order to buy a new purse or pair of shoes she'll never use.