charity wrote:He was brought up on charges, never prosecuted, because the nephews of Josiah Stowell were angry that he had talked their uncle into stopping the digging. They thought they were going to get rich until Joseph stopped the digging.
Actually, they were tired of seeing Joseph bilk so much money out of their uncle.
Oh, and the beginning of the venture was Joseph was hired to dig. He didn't promise to find anything. He was just a strong back with a shovel in his hands.
That's where I'll have to disagree. Joseph never did any of the actual digging. He made it clear that for him to exert any physical effort would cause the counter-enchantments to fail.
Actually, charity, it's kinda hard to assert the standard apologist answer, when so many know the real story.
Oh, and the beginning of the venture was Joseph was hired to dig. He didn't promise to find anything. He was just a strong back with a shovel in his hands.
That's where I'll have to disagree. Joseph never did any of the actual digging. He made it clear that for him to exert any physical effort would cause the counter-enchantments to fail.
I have never seen that argument before. Where did it come from? I really am curious. There is a reason for CFR, you know. Inquiring minds want to know.
ludwigm wrote:The "money digging" never was a working, real activity. It was fraud, and who committed it, knew this. Seek hidden treasures with magic rod or with seer stone may have been popular or respected or believed but didn't ever work.
I disagree that those who "committed it" knew that it was a fraud. Some may have, but I tend to think many of those who engage in such activities (including those who search for water with a divining rod) actually do believe that they are performing a “working, real activity.”
Whether Joseph believed it was such is another matter; however, I don’t think it’s an accurate statement to claim that everyone who has performed such activities knew/knows it to be fraudulent.
Mark Hoffman (Hofman? Hoffmann? Hofmann?) satisfied real demands, demands of people who believed the documents are original.
Was he a fraud when he "helped" those people who was craving for every document which may cause damage to the church? And those people wasn't average Streetwalker Jacks, they was of highest ranking.
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... when so many know the real story ...
Excerpt from the "Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith" by Joseph Smith Compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith First published by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in 1938. Taken from his sermons and writings as they are found in the Documentary History and other publications of the Church and written or published in the days of the Prophet's ministry. Selected and arranged by the Historian, Joseph Fielding Smith, and his Assistants in the Historian's Office of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. http://www.boap.org/LDS/Joseph-Smith/Teachings/T3.html - - -
The Prophet's Answer to Sundry Questions Section Three 1838-39, p.119 ... Tenth--"Was not Joseph Smith a money digger?"
Yes, but it was never a very profitable job for him, as he only got fourteen dollars a month for it.
Then he changed it to the more profitable job, to the church founding.
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco - To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
ludwigm wrote:The "money digging" never was a working, real activity. It was fraud, and who committed it, knew this. Seek hidden treasures with magic rod or with seer stone may have been popular or respected or believed but didn't ever work.
I disagree that those who "committed it" knew that it was a fraud. Some may have, but I tend to think many of those who engage in such activities (including those who search for water with a divining rod) actually do believe that they are performing a “working, real activity.”
Whether Joseph believed it was such is another matter; however, I don’t think it’s an accurate statement to claim that everyone who has performed such activities knew/knows it to be fraudulent.
Mark Hoffman (Hofman? Hoffmann? Hofmann?) satisfied real demands, demands of people who believed the documents are original.
Was he a fraud when he "helped" those people who was craving for every document which may cause damage to the church? And those people wasn't average Streetwalker Jacks, they was of highest ranking.
How in the world is that an apt comparison?!? Of course he was a fraud because he knew he was selling fraudulent documents as he was the one who created them. He even went so far as to murder in order to hide what he knew to be the truth.
Many people who perform "magical" activities (such as divining, tarot readings, money digging, etc.) actually believe that they have the ability to do these things. Is it still fraudulent? It certainly is to those who don't believe in such things. Is the individual performing the "magical" act a knowing "fraud"? I fail to see how they can be classified as such when they themselves believe they can perform such acts and are perfectly justified in renting out their talents to others.
Again, I disagree with your statement that those (i.e. all) who performed such things knew it to be fraudulent.
"Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." ~Charles Bukowski
Doctor Steuss wrote:How in the world is that an apt comparison?!? Of course he was a fraud because he knew he was selling fraudulent documents as he was the one who created them. He even went so far as to murder in order to hide what he knew to be the truth.
Are you sure you want to say that? By that logic, Joseph knew. He's the one who wrote the Book of Mormon and created the legend surrounding it. He's the one who reported the first vision and then changed it multiple times. He's the one who conned the women into "marrying" him and then lied about it repeatedly.
By that logic, Joseph knew. He's the one who wrote the Book of Mormon and created the legend surrounding it. He's the one who reported the first vision and then changed it multiple times. He's the one who conned the women into "marrying" him and then lied about it repeatedly.
If you think that Mark Hoffman is an apt comparison to Joseph, and think that the "logic" necessitates that Joseph knew he was perpetrating a fraud (a la Mark Hoffman), then so be it.
I have no intention of arguing beyond that many people who engage in magical occult practices such as money digging and divining actually believe they have abilities to do such and actually believe they are providing a real service by renting out their talents.
"Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." ~Charles Bukowski
By that logic, Joseph knew. He's the one who wrote the Book of Mormon and created the legend surrounding it. He's the one who reported the first vision and then changed it multiple times. He's the one who conned the women into "marrying" him and then lied about it repeatedly.
If you think that Mark Hoffman is an apt comparison to Joseph, and think that the "logic" necessitates that Joseph knew he was perpetrating a fraud (a la Mark Hoffman), then so be it.
I have no intention of arguing beyond that many people who engage in magical occult practices such as money digging and divining actually believe they have abilities to do such and actually believe they are providing a real service by renting out their talents.
If Joseph knew it was a fraud, then yes, he and Hofmann have a lot in common. If, on the other hand, Joseph really thought he was channeling God, then that's a different deal.
Dr. Shades wrote:That's where I'll have to disagree. Joseph never did any of the actual digging. He made it clear that for him to exert any physical effort would cause the counter-enchantments to fail.
Remember the time he directed a dig from the comfort of his house. He didn't even have to move his fat butt out of his chair to con these dupes out of their money.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
Dr. Shades wrote:That's where I'll have to disagree. Joseph never did any of the actual digging. He made it clear that for him to exert any physical effort would cause the counter-enchantments to fail.
Remember the time he directed a dig from the comfort of his house. He didn't even have to move his fat butt out of his chair to con these dupes out of their money.
Now now. I don't think I've ever heard anyone refer to Joseph as fat. Besides, I think he got his exercise in different ways.
harmony wrote:Now now. I don't think I've ever heard anyone refer to Joseph as fat. Besides, I think he got his exercise in different ways.
Maybe not when he was young, but at Nauvoo he was pretty pudgy. Looks like the later Elvis in some ways.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”