Other Religious Forgeries

[Dr Exiled]

I was responding to believing MG's point that communicating through plates was somehow the best way for the Mormon God to communicate His holy decrees. I think direct communication would obviously be better with less chance of miscommunication. However, it would make the story "behind the music" a little less exciting for sure. And that is probably why the mysterious plates that no one could see, except the chosen faithful, was put into the story. It generated a little buzz probably.

Maybe the Mormon God wanted to generate a little p.r. excitement for his strange work? Why merely communicate directly when some mystery can be added to the mix, generating some anticipation for the release of the chloroform in print? We need more magic and mystery and ghost committees ....

Too bad the product was as mundane as it turned out to be. God should have developed his characters a little more, giving them a little more depth. Maybe a little more work on some of the stories to make them a little more exciting? Perhaps have the stripping warriors save some fair virgins from the evil lamanites? Anyway, the Mormon God needed some more help and this is why I don't think Shakespeare took part in the ghost committee.

Yes, well, evidently stone tablets were what God chose to communicate holy decrees to Moses, and such precedents tell us a lot more about the whys concerning the gold plates than do practical considerations such as the ones you raise. How many people were permitted to see the stone tablets stored in the Ark of the Covenant?

As for the mundaneness of the work, I have to disagree. Robbers, secret conspiracies, angels? This is mundane stuff? I don't agree. Naturally, every person is entitled to their own taste, but murder, human sacrifice, and huge cataclysms are not usually seen as boring stuff lacking spice.

I don't think Moses existed as the Bible claims and so I have my doubts regarding God carving on stone tablets. The exodus with 600,000 people wandering through the desert and not leaving a trace seems to be as fanciful as non-existent Nephites. But, I agree with you that plates fit into the myth now that you bring up the comparison.

[dastardly stem]

Let's consider the plight of the Book of Abraham as another example. If God was intent on preserving record on plates, because they are durable, then what happened with the Book of Abraham? Additionally once we consider the content of the papyrus from which the Book of Abraham was purportedly extracted from, we learn there was no Book of Abraham at all. It is most likely, it seems, Smith, if he's forwarding God's word, used the old relic of papyrus to divine thoughts given of God, transported to the poor man's brain. As it turns out, as well, the papyrus date to a couple of millennia after Abraham, making no mention of Abraham. Why should the plates be any different? Maybe they too do not mention anything about Nephi?

If as you say the plates were the best way for God to communicate the Book of Mormon, then why did God fail to follow the best way for the Book of Abraham? And to give back credence to a popular criticism of the whole Joseph translated the plates into English, why is it reported that the plates lay hidden away as he dictated the words that became the Book of Mormon? There doesn't seem to be much reason to think the story of the Book of Mormon is found on the plates anyway. That is plates could have been found and they may have stories etched on them that have no relation to the time and place of what the Book of Mormon claims, but like the ancient papyrus God simply needed them to magically enter the thoughts to Smith to write up the scripture.

And, as I recall from a previous conversation, you seemed intent to define faith as superstition and gullibility, and I had asked what is the great nobility of such a faith? It hardly seems like a virtue, but more of a vice. As I recall I got no response from you, but I remain curious.

Would plates have been a possibility for Book of Abraham? Would papyri have been a possibility for the Book of Mormon?

I'm not sure why that'd matter. I thought we were talking gods best method. Is he limited? can't he inspire people to create and write on metal plates?

As it is, from reading I did years ago, I understand that plates were/are not an unreasonable expectation for record keeping during the time frame and localities that the Book of Mormon history purportedly took place in. The fact that Joseph ‘picked’ plates as the medium for translation is not a smoking gun for ‘fraud’. Plates actually are an evidence of possibility that Joseph Smith was telling the truth. Yes, I know and am aware of similar elements between his story and others that run parallel to his in some respects, but nonetheless, stone box, gold plates...fit the bill for antiquity that comfortably resides in what would exist within the real world during the time/locations of Book of Mormon chronology.

Are you saying we see golden plates with Egyptian related language from mesoAmerica cicra 600 BC? That'd be quite a find. Or are you saying ballpark-wise there were plates with random Hebrew writings from eras hundreds of years off? Odd ypu see this as someone needing to prove the negative instead of accepting the burden. Why is that?

I noticed you avoided responding to my points and questions...ah well, you're certainly not under obligation to respond so ill take what I get, I guess.

[Kishkumen]

I don't think Moses existed as the Bible claims and so I have my doubts regarding God carving on stone tablets. The exodus with 600,000 people wandering through the desert and not leaving a trace seems to be as fanciful as non-existent Nephites. But, I agree with you that plates fit into the myth now that you bring up the comparison.

I hope you feel better now that you have borne your testimony.

[Kishkumen]

An absolutely brutal response, Reverend. The entire foundation of Mormonism rests on there being real treasure. Imagine if Mark Hoffman came to the Church and said he'd received the text of the Salamander letter through a medium? How much would the Church have paid for that?

It's only after the fact that those already bilked become open to watered-down versions of revelation.

After the gimmicks and sideshows that get the new religion going comes the "spiritualizing" of everything away -- at least, that's how it works according to Hugh Nibley. He just failed to provide his own beliefs to his own framework.

Yes and no. As far back as Gregory of Tours and perhaps earlier, the search for treasure was tied up in Christian beliefs. In Gregory it is the righteous king whom God will lead to the treasure. The line between the spiritual and the crassly material is not so stable and the shaman-like character stands right on the border between them.

Even with a character such as Hofmann I see someone who was fascinated by the possibility of creating the truth. Sure, on the other hand he claims to believe in nothing and that his victims aren’t suffering because they no longer exist. The guy *is* mental, but I tend to think that he partly felt like he was manifesting the truth by making these documents. The Salamander Letter works because it goes a step or two farther down the same road the Hurlbut affidavits already took everyone.

On the one hand, Hofmann was a much more committed and exacting forger than Smith. Smith was infinitely more talented as an on the fly bullshitter and also vastly more psychologically resilient than Hofmann. Hofmann’s refuge is to claim he believes in nothing because he can’t face any other option. Smith played it out to the end. Guy was a real bastard but he was not the complete coward Hofmann was.

But I see a possible similarity between them in this singular will to manifest a world through creativity and willpower. I am not prepared to reduced it to mere arrogance and manipulativeness, although both of those qualities are present. It is closer, in some respects, to poetry, but of a kind much older. The mythmakers wove worlds for their listeners to own fully, and entire civilizations rested on those fictions. Mormonism is no different, and I don’t think Smith is so different from those ancient mythmaker-poets. Hofmann is more of an artisan than a poet.

[Dr Exiled]

I don't think Moses existed as the Bible claims and so I have my doubts regarding God carving on stone tablets. The exodus with 600,000 people wandering through the desert and not leaving a trace seems to be as fanciful as non-existent Nephites. But, I agree with you that plates fit into the myth now that you bring up the comparison.

I hope you feel better now that you have borne your testimony.

Actually, I do. Why the invective?

[Kishkumen]

Actually, I do. Why the invective?

Which invective? Is bearing one’s testimony a dishonorable thing suddenly?

[Gadianton]

Smith was infinitely more talented as an on the fly bullshitter and also vastly more psychologically resilient than Hofmann

A fascinating point, considering something I'd read just the other day. It turns out, MormonThink has an awesome entry on the witnesses.

http://www.mormonthink.com/witnessesweb.htm

An anecdote touching this subject used to be related by William T. Hussey and Azel Vandruver. They were notorious wags, and were intimately acquainted with Smith. They called as his friends at his residence, and strongly importuned him for an inspection of the "golden book," offering to take upon themselves the risk of the death-penalty denounced. Of course, the request could not be complied with; but they were permitted to go to the chest with its owner, and see where the thing was, and observe its shape and size, concealed under a piece of thick canvas. Smith, with his accustomed solemnity of demeanor, positively persisting in his refusal to uncover it, Hussey became impetuous, and (suiting his action to his word) ejaculated, "Egad! I'll see the critter, live or die!" And stripping off the cover, a large tile-brick was exhibited. But Smith's fertile imagination was equal to the emergency. He claimed that his friends had been sold by a trick of his; and "treating" with the customary whisky hospitalities, the affair ended in good-nature.

Unbelievable. But you have to admit that the claim of Joseph's "bullshitting" and psychological resiliency somewhat go against the proposition that real plates are rock-bottom foundation. Or is that incorrect? Seems like he could sell an ice maker to an Eskimo.

ran some quick numbers and seems like the tile-brick could weigh about 17 pounds.

There should be a sequel called The Lost Witness.

[Themis]

The plates are an artifact. That connection point between the ancient and the modern. For this reason alone I think they are/were necessary. And there are witnesses, not a few, that say/testified that there were plates. I think you’re going to have to live with that.

Regards,
MG

Why when you won't accept all the other witness's for other plates and such?

[Moksha]

No need to produce plates...

The plates are an artifact.
Regards,
MG

Alfred Hitchcock would refer to them as the MacGuffin.

[Themis]

I don't think Moses existed as the Bible claims and so I have my doubts regarding God carving on stone tablets. The exodus with 600,000 people wandering through the desert and not leaving a trace seems to be as fanciful as non-existent Nephites. But, I agree with you that plates fit into the myth now that you bring up the comparison.

Would stone tablets back then be a big deal? It's not as though people couldn't make stone tablets back then. Moses fictional followers would probably be more impressed with things like parting the sea. One thing I take from the Bible is God's willingness to communicate better with the whole group then he supposedly does today, but then these are claims with no backing. Now God operates no different then the religious conman.