Spiritual trauma: did you have any?

[Guest]

This conversation is very sad, to me.

It is sad. Abuse is pretty common, and results in significant human suffering.

Of course, this makes me wonder why Charity's God hasn't always spoken clearly to his leaders so they would know how to deal with it. No, I don't wonder, actually, that was rhetorical. Charity's God doesn't exist to speak anything to his leaders, and his leaders, like every other human being on this earth, are just figuring things out on their own and are heavily influenced by their culture. When our culture began taking abuse more seriously, so did the LDS church. Once again, instead of being the trailblazer, the LDS church lags behind.

That's really unfortunate. Abuse permeates every segment of our society and well... this just makes me sad. :(

I'll say this, portraying women as weak (because these women FEEL weak, and pathetic, and helpless) can just continue the shame and embarrassment.

Or the insinuation that she's not strong when she stays -- there's strength in these women. Untapped. It's there. It's not their fault that they have difficulty recognizing it for what it is.

[_beastie]

Well, in charity's rich personal experience with spousal abuse, she has learned that she should blame herself and others for a collective failure to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. After all, her abusive spouse has told her that it is her weakness that is to blame for the abuse.

What's interesting about this is that this is a very common attitude in larger society. It's just unsettling to see it in someone with a background in psychology, who claims to have studied and understand the cycle of abuse. Thankfully, none of the psychological professionals my children I and sought help from manifested this level of ignorance.

[_Moniker]

What's interesting about this is that this is a very common attitude in larger society. It's just unsettling to see it in someone with a background in psychology, who claims to have studied and understand the cycle of abuse. Thankfully, none of the psychological professionals my children I and sought help from manifested this level of ignorance.

Well, this is why I've attempted to not follow this thread. And, I'll do so no more.

[_beastie]

Yes, but often times women blame themselves for being treated poorly. Often times these men do not reveal their real nature for quite some time and it's startling for the woman to be treated poorly. Here's a man that has been adoring, calm, reasonable, loving and slowly changes to reveal their real nature. Now, while he reveals his nature he blames the woman for the change -- it's her fault. And, unfortunately, even those that do know the cycle, do understand the dynamics, have difficulty recognizing their own situation. I don't think it's wise to call women that have been in the abusive cycle weak -- these are some of the strongest women I'll ever know, and have ever known. Even those that do not get out put up with abuse, humiliation, and degregation that many of us could not weather -- they do it while putting on a facade for their family, their friends, their communities, and their children. Often times these women are some of the most loving, compassionate, sincere humans that I've ever had the pleasure of meeting. I wish they all got out -- but when they stay there is no denying that these women are "tough" in their own way -- they must be, to carry on.

This is exactly why I have persisted in pointing out to charity that the problem IS NOT that these women need to "grow a spine".

Even if one does not agree with all the decisions involved in another's life, one can certainly recognize strength in human beings, even if one believes it is misapplied strength. I look at people of intense faith, who have given their entire lives to their God, sometimes at great cost. It takes strength to do that. I don't particularly think it's a fruitful expenditure of strength, but there's no denying they have great strength.

I was always strong, even when I was making the unfortunate decision to stay with my ex and keep trying. I don't doubt that for a minute, despite charity's insistence otherwise. I always knew I was much stronger than he was. That was his real problem - he was weak. Too weak to bravely face the most frightening opponent of all - your own internal demons.

[_Moniker]

One more point I forgot to make, which I wanted to make earlier, as well, for different reasons.

Abusers are human beings. They are hurt human beings. Yes, they hurt their victims, and it's easy to demonize them because of their behavior. But the people who know them and - yes - love them, realize what potential they have, and realize how hurt they are.

It's hard to give up on someone you love.

Yes, it is. Do you know what a man on this board said to me about my husband? He said, "why do you portray him as a creep?" And I thought about that for a while.. as it bothered me and hurt me immensely when that was said to me. And you know what? For years, I told myself and others that my husband was wonderful, that it was I that was flawed... even though I knew it was really him. For a woman to finally step up, talk out, and to tell someone else is one of the first and monumental tasks to the ability to understand that what she's seen, known, and "felt" needs to be let out of that festering wound that has built up. So, when men are portrayed as "creeps" this is at times fundamental to the woman that loves him very much finally releasing the other side of him, the one she knows existed, yet has had great difficulty relating to anyone else because of shame. So, yes, these men are multifaceted, and we love them for many reasons -- and yet, love can not come at the expense of one self.

Anyway, I'm so glad you're on this board, Beastie. :)

[_charity]

So you're of the school of thought you should end a marriage when you feel bad, or when the spouse makes you feel bad? I doubt it. Sometimes marriages have problems that can be resolved, and while those problems are being resolved, the spouses sometimes feel bad. This is why I brought up Mormonism - not to "blame" it for being abused, but to put into context why I stayed in the marriage so long. I believed that marriage - like life dedicated to the gospel - wasn't meant to be easy, it was meant to be "worth it". I had already endured a horrific mission as a devout LDS, and actually tried to talk the mission president into letting me go home. The french people treated us very badly, we endured cursing and rudeness every single day, repeatedly. On top of that, our leaders continually chastised us for a lack of success. And my first companion was extremely negative and hard to be around. I was miserable every single day of my mission. I was far more miserable on my mission than in my marriage, because at least in my marriage I wasn't around him 24/7. Yet I was told, and believed, that giving up was wrong, that I'd set a pattern for giving up too soon for the rest of my life. So I stuck it out. I stuck it out because I believed the "prize" was worth it, in the end. (the prize of serving the Lord) Missions were idealized in the LDS culture, just like marriage was idealized. So I wasn't entirely surprised when my marriage turned out to be hard and miserable, too. But did that mean I should just give up?

About your mission: Happiness is not the result of our circumstances Happiness comes from within. Last year I spent a month in a rehab center because I broke my leg and had to be taught how to deal with no weight bearing for 3 months. Rehab is not a place you would chose to be. The other patients were unpleasant because they were unhappy and didn't want to be there, and that made the staff unpleasant because they didn't like taking care of people who were criticizing them and griping about the facilties, and the food, and the care, etc. The rehab center my insurance company would pay for was some distance from my home, and that made it hard for people who were not close friends and family to visit. And to make things pretty bad, I didn't have access to a computer. But I wasn't miserable every single hour of every day. Maybe your mission wasn't all joy and finding people who told you marvelous stories about praying to know the truth, and then you knocked on their door. But if you were miserable every day, it wasn't the mission that did it. It was your own attitude.

And what about the power of prayer? You earlier said someone should be held accountable for ignoring the spirit. I prayed every DAY about my marital problems, I PLEADED with God to show me the way, I PLEADED with him to help me know how to help my husband. My husband needed help. I never felt God was telling me to leave him. It was only when I lost belief in God altogether, and just made the decision logically, that I concluded I HAD to leave him. There are a couple of reasons for this. As a believer, I had the hope that, if I stuck it out in worthiness, that one day God would soften my husband's heart, and we'd be together in the next life, the way we always should have been. How many times were we told that, in the CK, we'd be HAPPY to be with our spouse, even if we had some problems now, because of WHO THEY WOULD BE in the CK??? Once I lost belief, I realized this life was all I had, and wasn't willing to waste anymore of it on him. And because of God and prayer, I believed he could change. I believed that the most powerful agent of change was the power of God I also, at times, felt God was actually telling me something during prayer, like the aforementioned "It's better to love than BE loved."

We could get into a discussion about choices. The trial preceeds the miracle. Maybe you gave up just a little too soon. Did that thought ever occur to you?

I thought it was silly to expect your spouse, or your marriage, to be "perfect". That was an immature invitation to failure. So the kicker is how much imperfection do you tolerate? As I mentioned before, everyone said marriage was hard, particularly the first few years. Mine was certainly hard. But how did I know it was an unacceptable level of hard??? And when I sought help from my spiritual leaders, they not only did NOT help me see what was happening was unacceptable and intolerable, but they MINIMIZED it and NORMALIZED it. Do you know what it's like to go to the bishop and try to tell him how your husband verbally attacks and shreds you over and over, and to be told this is NORMAL MALE BEHAVIOR, "locker room" behavior, and I should talk to HIS WIFE to get advice on how to deal with it??????????

I think there are some men who are going to be held accountable for not giving you more help and support.

You can deny it all you want, charity, because that is what you do - you cannot admit the church has been wrong about something even as you insist it's unreasonable to expect the church to be perfect - but the culture of the LDS church is what encouraged me to stay as long as I did. It's not a coincidence that I divorced him shortly after losing faith. And he was very insightful when he realized that my loss of faith meant that he was at serious risk, when before, he knew I would NEVER leave him.

You don't make a distinction between "the Church" and the people, even the leaders, in it. This is what you fail to understand. "The Church" is not wrong. The teaching to marry and work at having a healthy and successful marriage is not wrong. People are imperfect. Some more imperfect than others. And some REALLY imperfect. They are wrong. And sometimes even leades make wrong decisions.

(In response to my saying in my daughter's case that the children she had were the children of the man who was abusive.) Well, then, obviously she stayed long enough to have children with him. She didn't get out while the getting out was "easy". Why?

Because she was dumb. She thought she could change him. It took her 3 years to figure out that wasn't possible.

I respect women's rights to make choices. Behavioral theory is that we repeat behaviors which give us something. We fail to repeat behaviors which do not provide a return. Some people get in situations where their availalbe choices are limited. The purpose of a healthy society is to provide an adequate range of choices, or at least allow choices to be supported.

Society still fails in that regard, and my own society certainly failed me in that regard, as well. And you grossly oversimplify human relationships with your above assertion, "you knew you felt bad", which evidently is a signal to end the marriage. If every married person divorced when they "felt bad" in some way related to the marriage, just about everyone would be divorced.

You trivilaize important points and overstate less important ones.

[_Trevor]

Because she was dumb. She thought she could change him. It took her 3 years to figure out that wasn't possible.

Yes, she wasn't smart like charity, who understood that her abuser didn't need to change, but that she instead needed to reform her own behavior in order to make him quit abusing. After all, it wasn't really abuse. It was correction. It was love.

[_beastie]

About your mission: Happiness is not the result of our circumstances Happiness comes from within. Last year I spent a month in a rehab center because I broke my leg and had to be taught how to deal with no weight bearing for 3 months. Rehab is not a place you would chose to be. The other patients were unpleasant because they were unhappy and didn't want to be there, and that made the staff unpleasant because they didn't like taking care of people who were criticizing them and griping about the facilties, and the food, and the care, etc. The rehab center my insurance company would pay for was some distance from my home, and that made it hard for people who were not close friends and family to visit. And to make things pretty bad, I didn't have access to a computer. But I wasn't miserable every single hour of every day. Maybe your mission wasn't all joy and finding people who told you marvelous stories about praying to know the truth, and then you knocked on their door. But if you were miserable every day, it wasn't the mission that did it. It was your own attitude.

Amazing. It’s amazing you can assert this at the same time as telling me that being treated badly and feeling badly in my marriage should have been sufficient reason to end it.

We could get into a discussion about choices. The trial preceeds the miracle. Maybe you gave up just a little too soon. Did that thought ever occur to you?

Oh. My. God. Are you now telling me I should NOT have divorced my husband, that I gave up too soon????

I think there are some men who are going to be held accountable for not giving you more help and support.

I judge them less harshly than you do. They did not understand verbal abuse. They should never have been placed in a situation wherein they were attempting to counsel people with serious life issues.

You don't make a distinction between "the Church" and the people, even the leaders, in it. This is what you fail to understand. "The Church" is not wrong. The teaching to marry and work at having a healthy and successful marriage is not wrong. People are imperfect. Some more imperfect than others. And some REALLY imperfect. They are wrong. And sometimes even leades make wrong decisions.

For heaven’s sake, charity, I keep using the phrase the “culture of the LDS church”. I’m not going to get into the pointless conversation with you on whether or not it’s possible for “The Church” to be wrong. Obviously I think it’s wrong on the most important points, and obviously you don’t. By using the phrase “the culture of the LDS church” I hoped to circumvent this pointless sideline.

Because she was dumb. She thought she could change him. It took her 3 years to figure out that wasn't possible.

There you go. She was dumb. You finally said the word that I knew was lurking on the tip of your tongue all along.

And yet you just told me I might have given up too soon???

But aside from your predictable inability to have consistency even on one given thread, let’s review how you really feel about victims of abuse, who are still trapped in the cycle of abuse.

They are weak. They don’t have a spine. They are dumb.

You trivilaize important points and overstate less important ones.

This statement is meaningless.

[_Moniker]

Yes, but often times women blame themselves for being treated poorly. Often times these men do not reveal their real nature for quite some time and it's startling for the woman to be treated poorly. Here's a man that has been adoring, calm, reasonable, loving and slowly changes to reveal their real nature. Now, while he reveals his nature he blames the woman for the change -- it's her fault. And, unfortunately, even those that do know the cycle, do understand the dynamics, have difficulty recognizing their own situation. I don't think it's wise to call women that have been in the abusive cycle weak -- these are some of the strongest women I'll ever know, and have ever known. Even those that do not get out put up with abuse, humiliation, and degregation that many of us could not weather -- they do it while putting on a facade for their family, their friends, their communities, and their children. Often times these women are some of the most loving, compassionate, sincere humans that I've ever had the pleasure of meeting. I wish they all got out -- but when they stay there is no denying that these women are "tough" in their own way -- they must be, to carry on.

This is exactly why I have persisted in pointing out to charity that the problem IS NOT that these women need to "grow a spine".

Even if one does not agree with all the decisions involved in another's life, one can certainly recognize strength in human beings, even if one believes it is misapplied strength. I look at people of intense faith, who have given their entire lives to their God, sometimes at great cost. It takes strength to do that. I don't particularly think it's a fruitful expenditure of strength, but there's no denying they have great strength.

I was always strong, even when I was making the unfortunate decision to stay with my ex and keep trying. I don't doubt that for a minute, despite charity's insistence otherwise. I always knew I was much stronger than he was. That was his real problem - he was weak. Too weak to bravely face the most frightening opponent of all - your own internal demons.

Well, I don't want to follow the thread, but I want to keep talking to Beastie. :)

Yes, my husband recognized my strength too. It is he that is weak. His greatest fear was losing me. So in an effort to ensure that I could never leave he attempted to sap the strength and pride from me. And in many ways he did, yet unfortunately, for he, I found a different sort of strength. Not one that he expected, yet it manifested nonetheless. Anyway, it's a complex situation, and each are unique in their own way with broad themes. Yet, there's no doubting that the longer these women stay the more shame society inundates them with. That's really quite sad. If it's been 6 months, 10 years, 50 years, no matter what the time -- each of these women have a certain strength when they stay, and when (and if) they ever leave.

[_beastie]

Yes, it is. Do you know what a man on this board said to me about my husband? He said, "why do you portray him as a creep?" And I thought about that for a while.. as it bothered me and hurt me immensely when that was said to me. And you know what? For years, I told myself and others that my husband was wonderful, that it was I that was flawed... even though I knew it was really him. For a woman to finally step up, talk out, and to tell someone else is one of the first and monumental tasks to the ability to understand that what she's seen, known, and "felt" needs to be let out of that festering wound that has built up. So, when men are portrayed as "creeps" this is at times fundamental to the woman that loves him very much finally releasing the other side of him, the one she knows existed, yet has had great difficulty relating to anyone else because of shame. So, yes, these men are multifaceted, and we love them for many reasons -- and yet, love can not come at the expense of one self.

This is especially true because one of the abuser's tricks is to insist that the victim is not viewing reality accurately. It's a form of gaslighting, even to the point of denying what actually occurred. One of my exhusband's favorite tactics was to say incredibly cruel things to me and then laugh. When I protested, he would say I just didn't have a "sense of humor", that he was obviously joking. Since all of this behavior usually takes place behind closed doors, there's no one there to validate what you have just experienced, so you're left questioning your own perception of reality - which is, of course, the abuser's goal. He's not really the "bad guy". YOU ARE.

So, yes, being willing to trust your own perception of what has occurred, being willing to say, no, these things weren't meant as a "joke" and no normal human being would view them as a "joke" is an absolutely essential step. ("joke" being my particular example, not the template) It's the step that signals that the victim is ready to trust her ability to perceive reality accurately. Until that happens, she will remain trapped.

Anyway, I'm so glad you're on this board, Beastie. :)

Backatcha! :)