Spiritual trauma: did you have any?

[_beastie]

A quick correction - this particular spiritual trauma did NOT cause me to lose faith in the LDS church. I remained a faithful believer during most of my marriage. However, it was one of many events that made me wonder about the reliability of "revelation".

[_Coggins7]

The unfortunate thing is that the problem is systemic.

Not in my experience in the Church. Baseless assertions such as this are what immediately crush the credibility for apologists. And many critics wonder why they're not taken seriously much of the time.

[_harmony]

The unfortunate thing is that the problem is systemic.

Not in my experience in the Church.

As if your experience in the church is any more real than anyone else's. You do have a big opinion of yourself, don't you?

Baseless assertions such as this are what immediately crush the credibility for apologists. And many critics wonder why they're not taken seriously much of the time.

This, from the king of baseless assertions, is just too precious for words.

[_beastie]

See what I mean? You aren't grasping! If a man is abusing his wife, if she has been listening to the prophet, she knows he isn't doing what he should be doing! She knows it isn't her fault. IF she has been listening.

Well, certainly if my husband had actually beaten me, I would have immediately left and felt justified doing so. I’m sure this is why he never actually struck me. He’d been married once before me, very briefly, and her family always claimed he used to actually hit her, and lock her in a room. That marriage ended very quickly, and I think he learned to control that particular desire. Instead, he just used verbal abuse. It is much harder to recognize verbal abuse AS abuse, and, in fact, it’s much more recently gotten awareness. You act as if this should have been clear to me, and it wasn’t. There is also the “fog of war”, so to speak, to deal with. When you’re being verbally abused, you tend to go into shock. At least I did, and from Patricia Evan’s work, I’m not unusual in that. I couldn’t think clearly when he was attacking me, I was upset, frightened, and mostly, CONFUSED. And then afterwards the abuser twists what happens, and you’re left wondering if you’re sane, and what really DID happen.

Moreover, if it were as clear as you insist it is, then my bishops would NOT have minimized and normalized what happened to me. They weren’t “bad” people, charity. They weren't deliberately ignoring the counsel of the prophet anymore than I was. You are just so certain it’s simple and clear cut, when reality is the exact opposite.

And that justification you gave to me for why I was “miserable” on my mission and shouldn’t have been – you don’t think that’s the justifications I used in my marriage as well? I kept trying to simply change my expectations, change my attitude about it. That’s why I kept focusing on “it’s better to love than BE loved”. That type of reasoning is exactly why I stayed in my marriage as long as I did.

Are you incapable of perceiving QUESTION MARKS? I asked. I didn't tell. That is basic reading comprehension. That is why we have punctuation marks.

Who cares if you put freaking QUESTION MARKS or not??? It’s unbelievable you would even dare suggest that I should not have divorced my ex-husband, particularly after you’ve gone on and on in this thread that abused women who stay are stupid, weak, and need to grow a spine, and if they only LISTENED to the prophet would know to leave. And then you turn around and question that maybe I gave up too soon? Unfreakingbelievable.

But they should have been more sensitive to the Spirit. That is their calling.

So should the GAs who are only now getting on board with dealing with abuse more proactively.

These are all just human beings doing the best they can. Even if you remain a believer, the one thing all this mess from church history should have taught you by now is that it’s often very difficult to “hear” what “God” is saying, and one’s culture often seems to drown out God’s voice.

Dumb in the sense that they have notions such as "I can change him." Yes. But then many people have erroneous ideas. We are all dumb.

They are making choices that aren't in their own best intersts. Many of those choices are made because they are afraid of change. Many of those choices are made because they anticpate loss of benefits. If they are making choices based on their own perceived benefit and ignoring the cost to their children, then I see that as weak. I don't know that many women do that, but I do know of several who did.

You are careless with words, and no, I’m not talking about using “dry technical terms”. We are not all dumb, and your daughter wasn’t dumb. She was inexperienced and naïve, just as I was. Those are very different things than “dumb”.

I don’t know a single abused women who didn’t torture herself over how to best protect her children, but I’ll take your word for it that apparently you know “several” who did. I really wonder how well you knew any of these women, frankly.

[_Dr. Shades]

So I rushed into the house, and my husband was collapsed on the living room floor. I was frightened and concerned, but my husband did not want an ambulance. After I sat by him and talked to him for a while, he was able to get himself together enough to get off the floor and talk some more. I took him outside so the children wouldn't have to continue witnessing this. He just disintegrated before my eyes - it was heart wrenching. It was one of the very few moments in our marriage - probably in his life - where he let his mask completely drop and let me see "him". And he was just a puddle of helplessness and fear.

SWEET! Did you seize that rare moment to twist the knife? PLEASE TELL ME YOU DID!

He even admitted that he knew something was very wrong with him, but he didn't know what, and that I was right to leave him because I deserved better. I tried to contact his psychiatrist, because by that time he was going to therapy - marital and individual. Shortly thereafter he was diagnosed with bipolar and his doctor told me it sounded like he had a psychotic break. But it was heartbreaking. He was the most broken human being I'd ever seen. Yet, by that point, I knew I could not rescue him.

Beastie, that was a god-given chance to get your digs in and finally give him what he deserved. PLEASE tell me you seized that precious opportunity to berate him and humiliate him to the fullest extent of your ability. Now that the mask had dropped, he deserved to be belittled, berated, and given everything back that he had given you. PLEASE tell me you stuck it to him when he so richly deserved it. PLEASE TELL ME YOU DIDN'T LET THAT RARE OPPORTUNITY PASS YOU BY!

(I just have a hard time with abusers being given any slack when no slack is deserved. Of being given any mercy when they extended no mercy to their victims.)

Whatever became of him, anyway?

[_beastie]

Beastie, that was a god-given chance to get your digs in and finally give him what he deserved. PLEASE tell me you seized that precious opportunity to berate him and humiliate him to the fullest extent of your ability. Now that the mask had dropped, he deserved to be belittled, berated, and given everything back that he had given you. PLEASE tell me you stuck it to him when he so richly deserved it. PLEASE TELL ME YOU DIDN'T LET THAT RARE OPPORTUNITY PASS YOU BY!

(I just have a hard time with abusers being given any slack when no slack is deserved. Of being given any mercy when they extended no mercy to their victims.)

Whatever became of him, anyway?

No, I didn't twist the knife. I don't think you would have, either, had you seen him. He didn't need to be "taught" that letting the mask slip resulted in being poorly treated, either.

He went on to have several relationships before settling down and moving in (very quickly, his same pattern) with his current girlfriend. It's hard to believe, but he found someone just about as messed up as he is. I don't know how he treats her behind closed doors (I suspect not well given the fact that he "jokes" about her weight in front of my kids), but she, in turn, has been cruel and verbally abusive to my children. So they're a match made in h**l, and as far as I'm concerned, she deserves whatever he dishes out on her. He also has manipulated the system and has paid a very small amount of child support over the years. He is self employed and does most of his business "under the table", and self reports only 20,000 dollars a year. That does not translate into a lot of support. But he has the money to buy an 80,000 fishing boat, and lots of toys and jewelry. So, financially, he's much better off than I am. He continued to try to torment me for years, mainly through the children, but I disengaged from him and he eventually left me alone. My children continue to deal with him, but on THEIR terms now.

But I am the real winner. I have a healthy, loving relationship with my boyfriend, and the respect, esteem, and love of my children. He has none of those.

[_charity]

So I rushed into the house, and my husband was collapsed on the living room floor. I was frightened and concerned, but my husband did not want an ambulance. After I sat by him and talked to him for a while, he was able to get himself together enough to get off the floor and talk some more. I took him outside so the children wouldn't have to continue witnessing this. He just disintegrated before my eyes - it was heart wrenching. It was one of the very few moments in our marriage - probably in his life - where he let his mask completely drop and let me see "him". And he was just a puddle of helplessness and fear.

SWEET! Did you seize that rare moment to twist the knife? PLEASE TELL ME YOU DID!

He even admitted that he knew something was very wrong with him, but he didn't know what, and that I was right to leave him because I deserved better. I tried to contact his psychiatrist, because by that time he was going to therapy - marital and individual. Shortly thereafter he was diagnosed with bipolar and his doctor told me it sounded like he had a psychotic break. But it was heartbreaking. He was the most broken human being I'd ever seen. Yet, by that point, I knew I could not rescue him.

Beastie, that was a god-given chance to get your digs in and finally give him what he deserved. PLEASE tell me you seized that precious opportunity to berate him and humiliate him to the fullest extent of your ability. Now that the mask had dropped, he deserved to be belittled, berated, and given everything back that he had given you. PLEASE tell me you stuck it to him when he so richly deserved it. PLEASE TELL ME YOU DIDN'T LET THAT RARE OPPORTUNITY PASS YOU BY!

(I just have a hard time with abusers being given any slack when no slack is deserved. Of being given any mercy when they extended no mercy to their victims.)

Whatever became of him, anyway?

This is disgusting. Twist the knife? If you would take pleasure in causing another human being pain, you are not better than he is.

[_Dr. Shades]

But he has the money to buy an 80,000 fishing boat, and lots of toys and jewelry.

Wow--what does he do for a living?

(And why is it that abusers are always rich while good people are always poor?)

[_charity]

she, in turn, has been cruel and verbally abusive to my children. So they're a match made in h**l, and as far as I'm concerned, she deserves whatever he dishes out on her. .

What about the cycle of abuse. And how these poor women learned their abusive patterns and it isn't really their fault?

Your whited sepulchre is showing.

[_Moniker]

she, in turn, has been cruel and verbally abusive to my children. So they're a match made in h**l, and as far as I'm concerned, she deserves whatever he dishes out on her. .

What about the cycle of abuse. And how these poor women learned their abusive patterns and it isn't really their fault?

Your whited sepulchre is showing.

I can't speak for Beastie, and dare not ever try. :)

Yet, I think compassion ends for me when my children are being hurt. Yep, that's the line I draw. Wish I wasn't so petty and vindictive. Yet, when it comes to my kids, I most definitely am.