The sex thread

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_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

The 60s were an unparalleled era of cultural, philosophical, and moral decay. You don't understand how your mind has been warped by its insidious doctrines. Ergo, you have no idea what you are talking about. The 60s. Yeah.



Yes, they were unparalleled from the perspective of the last couple of centuries. At least since the French Revolution, where the modern Left really got its start.

My my aren't we touchy about the era of peace, love, and good vibes.

Neener, neener, neener.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

NR is a rather highbrow periodical that would probably make you feel in a bit over your head Trevor. They use a lot of big words there and many of the articles require sustained, critical thought to work through and digest. Just stick with CNN headline news, where you've already received most of what you believe about the world, and you'll be fine.



Or are you a victim of modern American higher Ed? If that's the case, its probably hopeless. But don't worry, that Che Guavara T shirt will eventually become a little much even for you.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

Coggins7 wrote:Its really very simple.: We cannot understand the present if we do not understand the past and the past's relation to the present in the context of the origin and development of cultural attributes.


The 60's is not the past, in the sense of historical context. The 60's is pretty much the present. Good grief, Loran, in the context of thousands of years, the last 48 is a mere drop in the bucket of time.

Claiming that the sexual revolution had no relation to the massive spread of pornography in later decades, the breakdown of the family, and stratospheric rises in unwed motherhood, premarital cohabitation, abortion, and a society in which one in every two marriages ends in divorce, is so out of touch with the literature, critique and analysis that's been done on this issue over the last several decades (not to mention being flatly counter intuitive) as to be stupefying.


Well, since you have yet to show any sources for your allegation (that the 60's sexual revolution is responsible for what you call the downfall of society as we know it--which you also haven't shown to be what you claim it is), you'll no doubt forgive me for pointing out, once again, that all of your allegations are simply your opinion and as such, are as worthless as anyone else's opinion. Put up or shut up, Loran. Let's see your sources that clearly connect the 60's sexual revolution with what you're calling the downfall of society. (and I'm not talking about the information you just served up in a classic cut and paste. I'm talking about an essay/book/article that connects that information to your hypothesis.)

You have yet to show that pornography is any worse now than it was hundreds or even thousands of years ago (thousands of years ago, it was most prominently displayed in the dining room, and the size of a man's penis was equated to the size of his purse, so I guess you know what was all over the dining rooms of the rich!). And your knowledge of the history of marriage is abysmal and shows in your understanding of what you're calling "premarital cohabitation" (as if it was a new phenomena, and not simply a return to society's norm 500 years ago, when only the rich married. You do remember the Dark Ages, don't you?).

Don't you get it, Loran? There's nothing new under the sun! The 60's simply ended the preoccupation of the society with an antiquated and outdated Victorian morality (which, when you study that era, you'll find all sorts of interesting tidbits... like they weren't quite as moral on the inside as they liked to show on the outside).

Indeed, you could only get this stupid in college...


How would you know? You have no degree.
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

The 60's is not the past, in the sense of historical context. The 60's is pretty much the present. Good grief, Loran, in the context of thousands of years, the last 48 is a mere drop in the bucket of time.


As I've already pointed out, your flaming strawman of the many thousands of years has no logical connection to any critique of the sexual revolution, at least not one that I've made.


Snip rambling gibberish.

I could source thousands of pages of text: books, magazine articles, think tank studies and essays, that clearly and concisely connect the cultural sea changes of the sixties and seventies to the clear decline of western civilizational standards and massive rise in social pathology in the decades since, but I'm not going to do homework that you, with your very own computer, can do yourself. You wouldn't read or credit them in any case, because all of them are going to be the work of conservative intellectuals, scholars, and social critics, which you will dismiss out of hand on sight. I know this game, Scratch used to play it too. This is a theoretical and interpretive area, not an empirical one (except for the social science data of course, which can always be explained away as pure correlation) in which you or I get to "show" or "prove" our points. It is the quality of the critical analysis; the philosophical coherence and plausibility of the arguments brought to bear that tip the scales one way or the other. For example, your claim that the mass acceptance of the ideology of the Sexual Revolution had no causal influence on the mass acceptance of pornography, and the mass acceptance of pornography had no causal influence upon later cultural developments, or negative socio-cultural consequences, and, indeed, no historical connection to societal conditions in the present, isn't even plausible on its face. The connections can be shown (anyone who thinks porn doesn't have destructive effects on its viewers is a paleolithic ignoramus-or a liberal, because that's the kind of moral and intellectual cretinism necessary to accept such a claim), and anyone who has studied addiction, of which sexual addiction (a very recent phenomena in the sense of its sudden massive increase over just the last fifteen to 20 years) is a major part, knows this.

The opposite thesis, that the past conditions and affects the present, is not only plausible but unarguable historical fact. You say the sixties are the present? I say the 30s and 40s are the present; the Great Depression and WWII permanently altered the cultural and political landscape and we are still living with those cultural dynamics. But that is still the past, and the sixties are almost half a century behind us, though the effects of that era are with us, to our continuing peril.

You have yet to show that pornography is any worse now than it was hundreds or even thousands of years ago


This strawman is getting larger, fatter, and moldier with every post. What will it take to get you to deal with this argument logically and honestly? Pornography isn't worse, its global ubiquitousness and availability through modern communications technology are what make it worse. Its mass acceptance, its domestication on a mass scale, are what make it much more threatening now than in prior centuries (when only a few ever actually had access to it). Woodcuts, paintings, and carvings in societies without modern electronic communications have no bearing on the modern argument.

And by the way, thousands of years ago, the Gospel's critique of pornography would have been exactly the same as it is today, relative to its effects on the individual and upon society when it is domesticated, accepted, and become ubiquitous. Oh, but don't tell me, that critique is another of the things about the Church you don't accept. The Spirit told you...



(thousands of years ago, it was most prominently displayed in the dining room, and the size of a man's penis was equated to the size of his purse, so I guess you know what was all over the dining rooms of the rich!). And your knowledge of the history of marriage is abysmal and shows in your understanding of what you're calling "premarital cohabitation" (as if it was a new phenomena, and not simply a return to society's norm 500 years ago, when only the rich married. You do remember the Dark Ages, don't you?).



Don't even go there with the left wing revisionist history regarding the history of marriage. That's a interpretational template superimposed on that subject for which there is ample refutation. Marriage has actually been practiced in very much the same form, with variations and modifications, from time immemorial. Pointing out exceptions is easy, but similarities abound as well. I've been over this trope before with others, so stuff it, its ideologically based revisionism (created, by the way, by leftist historians primarily interested in defending...the sexual revolution, and, more specifically, Gay marriage). You see Harmony, he who controls the past controls the present. I'm quite cognizant of the efforts of some of the academic Left to try to make modern marriage seem historically atypical).


Don't you get it, Loran? There's nothing new under the sun! The 60's simply ended the preoccupation of the society with an antiquated and outdated Victorian morality (which, when you study that era, you'll find all sorts of interesting tidbits... like they weren't quite as moral on the inside as they liked to show on the outside).


Between the continuously growing strawman and the preformatted left wing can't, this is getting stale.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Rollo Tomasi
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Post by _Rollo Tomasi »

Coggins7 wrote:I am on the attack. Just for once, I get to go for the throat. Let the frauds, poseurs, intellectual crackpots (like merc, PP, Zoid, Schmo, and a dozen others), and desperate demagogues like Rollo beware.

That's pretty funny coming from an ant among a crowd of giants.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
_Trevor
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Post by _Trevor »

Coggins7 wrote:Or are you a victim of modern American higher Ed? If that's the case, its probably hopeless. But don't worry, that Che Guavara T shirt will eventually become a little much even for you.


Boy, you just run with your speculations and assumptions, don't you? And don't worry about the NR being a little high brow for me. If I could handle two MA degrees, a PhD from an Ivy, and my French, German, Greek, and Latin exams, I think I can handle the NR.

Does all of this education necessarily make one a "victim" of higher education? Be careful how you answer. You are in danger of revealing yourself as one of the worst thinkers around here.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_Roger Morrison
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Post by _Roger Morrison »

Coggins7 said:

No, its just that pornography really didn't take off until the 80s and the general spread of home video. Deep Throat and traditional film distribution brought it out of the shadows, so to speak (as well as the general eroticization of Hollywood, I.e. the "obligatory sex scene" of the seventies), but the VCR mainstreamed and popularized it by making it much more available and discreet. The Web has finalized that process.



A digression but a valid observation. Where to run with it?? One could/can wonder why the appeal? And/or the harms of the availability of explicit sex scenes?

Not too long ago most kids were privy to their parent's baby-making. As well as child's-play between sibs. In one or two room shacks or hovells, sleeping on piles of straw/rags, where our past serf-type ancestory attempted survival, privacy, comfort and hygiene were a looooonnngg way from what we now enjoy (thanks to those left-leaning reformers. Sorry Cog, i couldn't resist ;-)

As with all that comes with advancements, there are pros that enhance & cons that challenge us, individually and collectively. Personally i tend to think the challenges as tests of our mettle. Some take them reactively, proactively or even inactively (submissively).

I think You and I have observed, and engaged each other long/often enough to be aware of our differences. Which i respect.

That said, IMSCO, humanity has the ability to remedy the negs of "the New" as we utilize the positives for the good of all. I think that can only be successful as we let go of past conditionings that too often make us react in fear and misunderstanding of "new'. What is new and visible is often, without serious study, not seen in its totality. Much as microbes are not within vision of our naked eye.

I think there is a tendency of old-folks to be too attached to their sense of right. This prevents them from seeing themselves, in many cases as being behind-the-times. The "problems" they see are "opportunities" for the emerging generation. With too many 'olds' there is more lamentation of, rather than appreciation of, and confidence in our "youth".

What you pointed out above, is a reality. It is not a sign of doom, as i view it. Didn't mean to rant :-) (Ya didn't respond to my "birth control" question??) Warm regards, Roger
_Moniker
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Post by _Moniker »

Coggins7 wrote:
NR is a rather highbrow periodical that would probably make you feel in a bit over your head Trevor. They use a lot of big words there and many of the articles require sustained, critical thought to work through and digest. Just stick with CNN headline news, where you've already received most of what you believe about the world, and you'll be fine.


Ha! NR is highbrow? I'll tell ya what, Coggins, I've been reading some stuff lately that I have to wade through and sometimes it reads as gobblygook to me. NR or any other publication by cons, or neo-cons, is not that hard to digest, really. Sheesh. Sometimes you're just silly. Willy.

Or is it if you read from more than one side of the ideological spectrum that you're not using critical thought? ;)
_Moniker
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Post by _Moniker »

I have a question, Coggins. Do you ever take pause and consider your own beliefs? Ever look outside your own ideology and see if there is any merit in other opinions and political philosophies? I've noticed that in debate (not that I do that with you any more) that you seem to rely entirely on only supporting opinions (copy and pasted usually) that reaffirm your beliefs. Are you open to the possibility that things are not so easily partisan and there can be benefit derived from looking at all sides of an issue?
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

Coggins7 wrote:
Is that a new TR question? Is it required to be LDS or even LDS in good standing?



It is a core, central truth claim of the Church. The entire Church is based upon it. If the Book of Mormon is not historical, than Joseph Smith was an utter fraud in claiming that it was, and the entire origin story of the Church, including Moroni, the Gold Plates, the Whitenesses, the translation, everything, collapses.

If the characters in the Book of Mormon did not actually exist, then they never experienced the things that book says they experienced. In that case, the book is purely fictional-and purely theoretical; it ceases to be a guide for the present because the crux of the Gospel-its application to actual mortal struggles with evil and opposition, becomes purely fictionalized. That is, made up. Religion then becomes a strictly abstract exercise in which lofty principles exist as little black marks on white paper but nothing more; the exploits and struggles of real people living real gospel principles against a background of spiritual insight, miraculous intervention, and the hand of God moving amongst his faithful servants protecting, guiding, and preserving them, is lost.

But that is, indeed, how so many want the Book of Mormon no? Many of us don't want those characters to be real; we don't want the Book of Mormon to be a record of real people living out a great drama against the backdrop of the continuance of the War in Heaven upon the earth and the Plan of Salvation because that historicity just brings the book and its teachings just a little to closes to home. That makes it too real, too imminent, too down to earth. And we don't want our religion too down to earth do we, because that implies a direct confrontation with our own lives as parallel to those lives, historically lived, in the Book of Mormon.

Liberal Protestants have rejected Jesus as divine, the concept of miracles, and have come to cling to the "historical Jesus" for the same reasons: he's much more docile and much more purely symbolic. We don't want too much literalism in our religion because that brings it right to our doorstep.




Gee

Did you answer my question? Let me try again:

Is that a new TR question? Is it required to be LDS or even LDS in good standing?


Now, I assume the long answer above meant you think it is yes, at least to the last two. I know it is not a TR question. So, you think members who believe it is inspired fiction, or that Joseph may have inspirationally expanded on the original text are not members in good standing and that they should be denied a TR?

How about Adam and Eve? Is Christianity and Judaism entirely false, and thus the LDS Church as well, if they were not real people? Maybe this is a topic for another thread.
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