Spiritual trauma: did you have any?

[_Ray A]

He also has manipulated the system and has paid a very small amount of child support over the years. He is self employed and does most of his business "under the table", and self reports only 20,000 dollars a year. That does not translate into a lot of support. But he has the money to buy an 80,000 fishing boat, and lots of toys and jewelry. So, financially, he's much better off than I am.

I think this pretty much says it all about the nature of this person. I don't agree with the current system, at least here in my country, but the law is the law. My ex was living on a combined income of $100,000 a year, but I was still slugged, and paid up.

[_beastie]

But I found it strange that after all her defense of abuse victims to say "she deserves whatever he dishes out to her" was pretty cold.

Yes, you're right, but I'm not that objective when it comes to my children. I could probably cut her slack on everything she's done except for the way she repeatedly attacked my bipolar son when he was at his weakest point. This child was literally suicidal - and she tried - TRIED - to push him over the edge, as did his father. in my opinion, they just hated him for having bipolar, because it was an uncomfortable reminder of that which they now deny - that his father also has bipolar.

I just don't have it in me to look beyond that. If that's the extent of my sepulchre, I can live with it.

[_Dr. Shades]

I do, however, gain a great (nay, nigh infinite) amount of vicarious pleasure when abusers get their come-uppance.

That's just one step away. If you and a buddy are robbing a store, he shoots the clerk, you get charged with murder.

No, that doesn't happen.

[_charity]

But I found it strange that after all her defense of abuse victims to say "she deserves whatever he dishes out to her" was pretty cold.

Yes, you're right, but I'm not that objective when it comes to my children. I could probably cut her slack on everything she's done except for the way she repeatedly attacked my bipolar son when he was at his weakest point. This child was literally suicidal - and she tried - TRIED - to push him over the edge, as did his father. in my opinion, they just hated him for having bipolar, because it was an uncomfortable reminder of that which they now deny - that his father also has bipolar.

I just don't have it in me to look beyond that. If that's the extent of my sepulchre, I can live with it.

I think I would be in the same position. One of my friends said if anyone ever molested her children, the police could have as many pieces of them they could find. But we should all be aware that when we try to hold others to a compassionate view, that we often don't have the same compassion we are expecting of others.

Could you get the judge to give a no contact order?

[_beastie]

I think I would be in the same position. One of my friends said if anyone ever molested her children, the police could have as many pieces of them they could find. But we should all be aware that when we try to hold others to a compassionate view, that we often don't have the same compassion we are expecting of others.

Could you get the judge to give a no contact order?

First, this happened several years ago - my son is doing very well today. He is totally committed to taking his meds and his therapy, which is the trick to treating bipolar. It is so tragic that bipolar is actually a disease that CAN be successfully controlled, but so many people with bipolar refuse to take their meds. The one thing we have to thank his father for is setting such a horrible example of someone who refused to take responsibility for his mental illness, and destroys those around him. My son is determined to never let that happen to him. I just wanted to clarify that he's fine now.

At that time, my son called me to come get him quick, which I did. He refused to visit his father again for a long time after that incident, and his father didn't force the issue. (in fact, at various times he has stopped visitation himself, just because he didn't want to deal with the kids) I think he knew better than to try and force it. Eventually, my son agreed to spend a short amount of time with his father, but their relationship is permanently damaged, of course. My son's therapist and I have always realized it is HIS decision whether or not to continue to have contact with his father, and he chooses to continue to do so, although in a minimal fashion, as do his brother and sister. It's amazed me how much they forgive and want to try again - I think I would have given up long ago if I were them. But children desperately want the love of their parent, even when he is such a damaged person. So they keep trying. But my sons are 21 and 20 now, and my daughter is a senior in high school. Their dad knows that they call the shots as far as how much they want to see him. But he is just so clueless as to the impact of his behavior on them, and their attitude towards him. It is so unutterably sad.

I look back on my life and my biggest regret is that I wasn't more careful in choosing the man who would father my children. How I wish that I could share my children's lives with their father - as loving as my boyfriend is, it just is never the same. I spent years beating myself up over that poor choice - and yet I did what I believed was the right thing to do, each step along the way. My therapist did a lot to help me release that self-blaming - and really, Charity, that is part of the reason I've been arguing so vociferously with you about this issue. I wasn't dumb, and I wasn't weak. I was in a complicated situation without easy answers, and I was naïve and confused. I believe this describes the vast majority of victims of abuse.

[_wenglund]

Beastie, that was a god-given chance to get your digs in and finally give him what he deserved. PLEASE tell me you seized that precious opportunity to berate him and humiliate him to the fullest extent of your ability. Now that the mask had dropped, he deserved to be belittled, berated, and given everything back that he had given you. PLEASE tell me you stuck it to him when he so richly deserved it. PLEASE TELL ME YOU DIDN'T LET THAT RARE OPPORTUNITY PASS YOU BY!?

Resisting such vindictive impluses is, in a way, what distinguishes non-abusers from abusers.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_wenglund]

I look back on my life and my biggest regret is that I wasn't more careful in choosing the man who would father my children. How I wish that I could share my children's lives with their father - as loving as my boyfriend is, it just is never the same. I spent years beating myself up over that poor choice - and yet I did what I believed was the right thing to do, each step along the way.

I see allowing ourselves a reasonable level of humanity/falibility as being a healthy thing. And, to me, the value of looking back into the past is to find ways to improve the future, rather than to beat oneself up with regrets and thus inadvertently make the past our future. Thankfully, the choice is always there to do the former.

My therapist did a lot to help me release that self-blaming - and really, Charity, that is part of the reason I've been arguing so vociferously with you about this issue. I wasn't dumb, and I wasn't weak. I was in a complicated situation without easy answers, and I was naïve and confused. I believe this describes the vast majority of victims of abuse.

I think you are mischaracterizing Charity's position by projecting onto her statements the words "dumb" and "weak". Rather, I believe her mention of "getting a backbone" has to do with "wisdom", "courage", and "self-empowerment"--not by way of blame, but rather by way of offering solutions. I was hoping to flesh this out through the questions I posed earlier, but as yet I haven't received a single response.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Tidejwe]

While reading some great posts on the Dehlin thread, I got curious about if others had something happen to them that triggered "further study" about issues they may not have even cared about otherwise. In other words, was there an event -- some may call it "being offended," or a shocking experience in church that sparked research/thought/prayer...all which combined to a change in faith?

My journey BEGAN when my older brother sent me an email about his own "Crisis of Faith" he was struggling with. I read his email while I was at work taking phone calls for Sprint PCS customer service at the time...and read the email on cell phone vision services while talking to this customer. Suddenly my heart and breathing stopped. I could think, nor could I remember what I was doing for this customer. I suddenly just told them I had to transfer them. I got off the phone, ran outside and called my dad. We talked about it for a while and decided we felt it was best he be the one to go see my brother about it all. As a strong TBM I suddenly became obsessed with reading EVERYTHING I could find to answer his concerns. I searched every anti-mormon book and writing and video and audio I could find, I searched all apologetic works I could find. I checked almost EVERY source. I even know a guy who works in the archives that confirmed some stuff with me. I spent MOST of my day involved in church history, etc. I became an extreme LDS apologist for a while. I remember a key devastating point in my Journey was when I read the actual "Lecture at the veil" and some other journal entries, and the trial of Bishop Edward Bunker and threats against Elder Pratt all regarding the Adam-God doctrine that it finally sunk in that Mormonism was absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to believe in the way I was raised to believe it. Of course there were MANY things that contributed to it, many of them pretty major things...but I just distinctly recall this as a major "final straw" that broke me. I'd always been told that the Adam God stuff was all a misrepresentation or scribal errors and all that BS. I finally realized on that day that church leaders and apologists sometimes lie and twist things as often as the "anti's" do. It sickened me. I couldn't sleep. I PRAYED and recorded most of my prayer and supposed answers that I thought I received as it "came to my mind". That day, the TBM-Tidejwe died and I was born on a journey for truth in whatever form it lies...I still believe there is A LOT of truth in Mormonism. I BELIEVE and have FAITH in a lot of it, though my interpretations are significantly different from that of other TBM's. There are some experiences in my life that I have trouble reconciling through logic and rational critical thinking that also help me believe there is SOMETHING there. I really don't know how else to understand some of them. I could accept being delusional or mind games on some of them, but others experiences are more difficult when other parties confirm the same thing without my leading them on. Perhaps I'll bring up an example or two some day...but suffice it to say, there is where I hit my breaking point. My older brother got me obsessed with apologetics and the Adam-God truth finally nailed me down. It wouldn't have been so bad if I hadn't been lied to by leaders and apologists for so long about it being out of context and scribal errors...liars...it hurt so bad I was literally sick and at the same time it's now one of the things I'm most grateful for in my entire life! I can't even begin to express how glad I am to know what I know and be free and open-minded seeking for truth in whatever form it lies...

[_Yoda]

I think you are mischaracterizing Charity's position by projecting onto her statements the words "dumb" and "weak". Rather, I believe her mention of "getting a backbone" has to do with "wisdom", "courage", and "self-empowerment"--not by way of blame, but rather by way of offering solutions. I was hoping to flesh this out through the questions I posed earlier, but as yet I haven't received a single response.

Welcome back, Wade! :)

Although I agree that solutions are what would be nice to focus on, I think that solutions to abuse issues vary with the individual. That's why professional counseling is so important. Everyone has different circumstances. Obviously, the main goal is for the person who is being abused to get out of the situation. However, there may be different means to meet that goal. It's hard to put down one specific plan in place. With some couples, if the abusive spouse is truly willing, counseling might be an option. For others, it would be best for the abused spouse to leave the situation altogether, particularly if children are involved and are in danger.

I think that Beastie sharing her personal story is very compelling. It shows that even strong, independent individuals can be subjected to abuse, and through no fault of their own.

I understand Charity's viewpoint as well. I think her frustration comes from the fact that she does not want to see strong, independent women lend themselves to a situation where they become perpetual doormats. Sometimes, however, as in Beastie's situation, it is a gradual process that can sometimes be difficult to recognize. It's like the phrase being "carefully led down to hell". It's a lot harder to escape a situation when you're in a slow boil.

I think this discussion is valuable because it involves recognition. You can't begin to formulate solutions if you don't recognize that you are in a bad situation to begin with. I applaud Beastie for being able to leave the abusive situation behind, and also for her generosity in sharing her vulnerability. I think it will help lead others to seeking help.

[_karl61]

Tidejwe,

thank you for those insightful thoughts

regards,

thestyleguy