Playing Moroni's Advocate

[_amantha]

1. The knowledge received from a spiritual witness is a self-confirming, complete packet of information. The process of receiving this knowledge includes at least two distinct qualities:

a. An unambiguous witness of the truth of the things for which you are seeking knowledge.
b. An unambiguous witness that the source from which the confirming witness is received is trustworthy.

2. Once the knowledge from a spiritual witness is received, all information which appears to conflict with the witness is not evidence that the spiritual witness is false. This principle is clear to those who have patiently pursued a genuine spiritual witness.

3. Evidence which supports the spiritual witness is inevitable in time but is not required. This evidence can be enjoyed but should not be relied upon.

The issue of the spiritual witness is really and issue of desire. You must want to have the spiritual witness. This is why God first seeks to witness to those who are ready to receive His message. Their hearts are prepared and are ready to submit to the process of acquiring the spiritual witness.

Life on earth is highly improbable but here we are. As improbable as it may seem that real truth can be found through the process described above, it works, although it is highly dependent on your intent, sincerity, desire and humility.

Have you sufficiently desired your spiritual witness?

[_moksha]

An unambiguous witness of the truth of the things for which you are seeking knowledge.

This is a hard thing for me. Ambiguity seems to be inherent in spiritual truths. Still with desire we can seek after them.

Amantha, what are your thoughts on relative truths?

[_amantha]

An unambiguous witness of the truth of the things for which you are seeking knowledge.

This is a hard thing for me. Ambiguity seems to be inherent in spiritual truths. Still with desire we can seek after them.

Amantha, what are your thoughts on relative truths?

I see truth as a reliable guide. People may relate to truth differently, but the truth is the same.

My relatives perceive Mormonism as the truth. We are not related in that regard.

[_karl61]

replace the word spiritual witness with spaghetti monster

[_Scottie]

It is very interesting to me, that when I talk about not receiving my witness, despite decades of asking, I tell how I have received all the buzzwords that they use to describe it. I have felt a burning in the bosom, a sweet peace, a comfort, a clarity of thought, etc, etc. But nothing I haven't felt a million times outside of praying to know if the church is true. The apologists often say that those WERE my answer, and that I'm not playing by God's rules.

However, when I try and corner them on what their answer felt like, it is invariably something soooo much more than a simple feeling. It was something incredibly powerful. Unmistakable. Indescribable.

I still maintain that they don't give the human brain enough credit. How can they put such limits on what the brain and our emotions can make us feel??

[_karl61]

I went and saw the movie atonement last night. I was wondering during the movie when the scenes of Dunkirk were being shown that if the men knew their life depended on the flying teapot circling the earth would they be happy of sad.

[_amantha]

It is very interesting to me, that when I talk about not receiving my witness, despite decades of asking, I tell how I have received all the buzzwords that they use to describe it. I have felt a burning in the bosom, a sweet peace, a comfort, a clarity of thought, etc, etc. But nothing I haven't felt a million times outside of praying to know if the church is true. The apologists often say that those WERE my answer, and that I'm not playing by God's rules.

However, when I try and corner them on what their answer felt like, it is invariably something soooo much more than a simple feeling. It was something incredibly powerful. Unmistakable. Indescribable.

I still maintain that they don't give the human brain enough credit. How can they put such limits on what the brain and our emotions can make us feel??

This is why I asked Charity, in another thread, about the evidence of a person's having had a spiritual witness. She mentioned the witnesses of the Book of Mormon and that the evidence is that they never denied their witness even though many became disaffected. By that definition, you have had a witness if you don't deny it, even if you are now apart from the church.

In other words, there is no evidence (for other people to sense) that a person has had a spiritual witness. Spiritual witnesses transcend objective evidence as the best form of evidence there is.

It's all self-contained logic, but it obviously works on many human beings.

[_charity]

I still maintain that they don't give the human brain enough credit. How can they put such limits on what the brain and our emotions can make us feel??

Maybe because I am a "senior" citizen, I have had many life experiences. I have even had numerous "Peak Experiences" as Maslow described. I have had great joy in family, known great loss, and I taught the psychology of emotions for a lot of years. I am pretty much aware of wht the human brain can do.

In other words, there is no evidence (for other people to sense) that a person has had a spiritual witness. Spiritual witnesses transcend objective evidence as the best form of evidence there is.

This isn't exactly correct. I suppose it is sort of the rich get richer, but when a person is speaking under the influence of the Spirit, then others who are also open to the influence of the Spirit can be given a witness that what that person is saying is true.

[_MishMagnet]

I don't believe in spiritual witnesses. I think they are highly unreliable.

Much like the man who snapped the photo of a fire in the shape of Pope John Paul. That man and countless others had a spiritual witness that this was the Pope's spirit, a sign from God. Perhaps in the future this will be the one experience that prevents them from leaving Catholicism when, in fact, it was a mere coincidence.

Nobody could be capable of flying a plane into a building without some sort of spiritual witness. It's random, contrived, a phenomenon of the brain.

[_Moniker]

Nobody could be capable of flying a plane into a building without some sort of spiritual witness.

Disagree. Political zealotry can cause people to become martyrs for their cause.

Edited.

Unless I'm misunderstanding your definition of a spiritual witness.