Playing Moroni's Advocate

[_beastie]

The past erroneous teachings of prophets, delivered in their role as prophets, from the pulpit, to the church members who looked to them for revelation and guidance, proves that if there were such a thing as unambiguous revelation, LDS prophets couldn't access it. Of course, one could assume that they didn't care enough to pray beforehand to get revelation about what to church the members "in the name of Jesus Christ", but I think that would be an unlikely assumption, with a whole other set of troubling implications.

That so many internet apologists imagine they can receive unambiguous revelation when past prophets could not is bizarre.

[_The Nehor]

The past erroneous teachings of prophets, delivered in their role as prophets, from the pulpit, to the church members who looked to them for revelation and guidance, proves that if there were such a thing as unambiguous revelation, LDS prophets couldn't access it. Of course, one could assume that they didn't care enough to pray beforehand to get revelation about what to church the members "in the name of Jesus Christ", but I think that would be an unlikely assumption, with a whole other set of troubling implications.

That so many internet apologists imagine they can receive unambiguous revelation when past prophets could not is bizarre.

A claim to getting revelation does not mean a person does not also throw out opinion, conjecture, guesses, jokes, and just generally shoot their mouth off.

It's when the speaker and the listener get the Holy Ghost that things work out. Hence Brigham's worries that the Saints would trust the Prophet too much that they would not seek witnesses. He also had a bit where he mentioned that many of those in the congregation could NOT be exalted because they could not govern themselves. They NEEDED another mortal to dictate things to them. He said they could never be more than servants because of this.

[_amantha]

I still maintain that they don't give the human brain enough credit. How can they put such limits on what the brain and our emotions can make us feel??

Maybe because I am a "senior" citizen, I have had many life experiences. I have even had numerous "Peak Experiences" as Maslow described. I have had great joy in family, known great loss, and I taught the psychology of emotions for a lot of years. I am pretty much aware of wht the human brain can do.

In other words, there is no evidence (for other people to sense) that a person has had a spiritual witness. Spiritual witnesses transcend objective evidence as the best form of evidence there is.

This isn't exactly correct. I suppose it is sort of the rich get richer, but when a person is speaking under the influence of the Spirit, then others who are also open to the influence of the Spirit can be given a witness that what that person is saying is true.

Or in other words, the evidence of the Spirit is the Spirit.

[_amantha]

I don't believe in spiritual witnesses. I think they are highly unreliable.

Much like the man who snapped the photo of a fire in the shape of Pope John Paul. That man and countless others had a spiritual witness that this was the Pope's spirit, a sign from God. Perhaps in the future this will be the one experience that prevents them from leaving Catholicism when, in fact, it was a mere coincidence.

Nobody could be capable of flying a plane into a building without some sort of spiritual witness. It's random, contrived, a phenomenon of the brain.

Agreed.

[_MishMagnet]

Nobody could be capable of flying a plane into a building without some sort of spiritual witness.

Disagree. Political zealotry can cause people to become martyrs for their cause.

Edited.

Unless I'm misunderstanding your definition of a spiritual witness.

I was taking into account the belief that killing the infidel would reward you with 70 virgins in heaven. That qualifies as a religious belief in my opinion.

[_Moniker]

Nobody could be capable of flying a plane into a building without some sort of spiritual witness.

Disagree. Political zealotry can cause people to become martyrs for their cause.

Edited.

Unless I'm misunderstanding your definition of a spiritual witness.

I was taking into account the belief that killing the infidel would reward you with 70 virgins in heaven. That qualifies as a religious belief in my opinion.

Well, there are people during war time that fly planes into buildings, there are those that drive bomb laden vehicles into buildings, and there are suicide bombers that commit their deeds for a secular purpose. I misunderstood -- I didn't realize you were talking about 9-11.

[_Doctor Steuss]

A hallucination is a fact, not an error; what is erroneous is a judgment based upon it.
--Bertrand Russell

[_solomarineris]

I don't believe in spiritual witnesses. I think they are highly unreliable.

What are you talking about? Every minute you live with your brain is a "spiritual witness", We are constantly in communication with it. Some people attribute some moments of it to an outside influence.
I had my spiritual witnesses in hundreds of Canyons of Utah in European Cathedrals, Budist Temples, Churches, Sex,
experimenting drugs, etc.
One thing is certain to me, everything I experienced came from within my brain.
There's nothing else. Unless somebody, something demonstrates me otherwise.
(Hypothetically speaking);
What if God exists? Is he gonna send me to Hell, just because I didn't believe his Son,
Mohammed or Moses.
He can't do that, just because I didn't take some old geezer's, Jerry Fallwel's word for it.