How God directs the church & meaning of: astray

[_The Nehor]

Hey Gad, I've had the Spirit tell me not to obey several things the Brethren have said. Does that count?

Nehor, I like you and all, but c'mon, you're one of these guys that sort of fantisizes about how important you are -- ok you're no jskains, but who is -- and is the kind of guy who thinks he gets revelations all the time, because he's so important, God just has to say something. When I was at BYU, I had a group of LDS friends who kind of considered themselves rebel LDS kids who majored in art and crap like that, with the exception of a couple physics guys, odly enough, and they were just like you. Sort of laid back, with all the truth of God at their fingertips as they saw fit. They smiled knowingly at others, LDS or non, who didn't seem to be getting all the personal communication they got. But all they had was nothing more than they high school kids who get so wrapped up in D&D that they begin to really think they are sorcerors and s*** like that.

I don't think I'm a rebel as such. They don't usually let rebels into Bishopric meetings and have them teach Gospel Principles. And trust me, if I had all the truth of God at my fingertips I'd have the visions of Eternity running right now rather than be posting here. Either that or I'd be joyriding in a chariot of fire. Sorry, I got something. Lots of people do.

Anyways, I'd say more but I have to generate a new Sorceror to replace my dead Paladin for my D&D game tomorrow. Good night.

[_Tidejwe]

I think you misunderstand. The argument goes that revelations for the organization as a whole would be revealed through the President of the church.

Jesus Christ, I'm so drunk out of my mind, you supposidly have the constant companionship of the holy ghost, yet you can't read and I can. I said clearly that the prophet is the only one who can get revelation for the whole church. That clearly excludes bishops and primary teachers.

by the way, Nehor, I was writing my response as the new year rolled in. happy new year, that makes you even more special.

Heh, it's funny you classify me as a TBM, but I suppose such classifications are relative. I'm sorry if there's a miscommuncation between us but I was attempting to make the point that the organization doesn't really matter in the first place. In other words, a revelation or policy for the organization doesn't even necessarily have anything to do with a person's individual salvation. Good standing in the church does not necessarily mean the same thing as good standing with God. I'm sure a smoker and drinker can get to heaven just like a "WORTHY" LDS member can. That's the point I meant to make and got side-tracked, so I apologize I didn't clarify clearly. The President might receive revelations for the organization in general, but in all honesty, I'm not sure that really matters that much in the great scheme of things in pertaining to our salvation.

-Definitely not a Traditional believing Mormon, but if you want to label me as a TRUE believing Mormon, I suppose that's subject to semantics...

[_truth dancer]

I'm still wondering why the God of the Universe needs a little organization on this earth? A little organization claiming to be the chosen of God, that sort of comes and goes in the human community every thousand years or so, that is more special/true/right than all the other organizations that show up for a time on the earth claiming to know the real truth.

The universe has done quite well for nearly fourteen billion years without human men who claim to have the power of God. And humankind seems to evolve/develop without any evidence of Godly intervention or interaction.

I see no evidence whatsoever that any man who claims to have this power actually has any unusual power not available to all folks the world over.

In fact, I see no significant evidence at all that any organization that claims to have God at the helm is significantly different than any other group who claims to be the real chosen group.

~dancer~

[_Sethbag]

Here's how I see this whole thread. There's a lot of evidence that makes it seem hard to accept that God is really leading the church. Therefor, since someone wishes to believe it really is, that someone has gone to some effort to find a way to rationalize all of that evidence, and the thesis of the OP is the result.

I'm with Gadianton and Mercury on this one; the church is still a fraud, no matter how you try to explain away the quirks in its leadership. Joseph Smith didn't really see God, wasn't really ordained by Peter, James, and John, never actually translated real golden plates, never had an angel with a drawn sword threaten to kill him if he didn't take some teenager as his 30somethingth wife, etc. He just made that s*** up. I think all that's really left to argue about on that score is whether Dan Vogel is right and Joseph was a "pious" fraud, or whether every shred of his piety was all part of a cynical act (I'm inclined toward Vogel's position myself).

[MODERATOR NOTE: Please do not use the "S" word in the Terrestrial Forum.]

[_LCD2YOU]

I'm still wondering why the God of the Universe needs a little organization on this earth? An little organization claiming to be the chosen of God, that sort of comes and goes in the human community every thousand years or so, that is more special/true/right than all the other organizations that show up for a time on the earth claiming to know the real truth.

The universe has done quite well for nearly fourteen billion years without human men who claim to have the power of God. And humankind seems to evolve/develop without any evidence of Godly intervention or interaction.

I see no evidence whatsoever that any man who claims to have this power actually has any unusual power not available to all folks the world over.

In fact, I see no significant evidence at all that any organization that claims to have God at the helm is any different than any other group who claims to be the real chosen group.

~dancer~

Well said Truth Dancer. You expressed so well a lot of what I feel really goes on in this thing known as "Real Life/Universe".

Since we're on a LDS-ish board, will you marry me? I mean I do have another wife but seeing we're here, I don't think it would be frowned on :)

[_skippy the dead]

Hey Gad, I've had the Spirit tell me not to obey several things the Brethren have said. Does that count?

Maybe it's the newness of the year, but I find myself compelled to comment on this. I've seen several statements along these lines from Nehor (including many wherein he claims direct communication from God). So I must ask - why is it that you think you are privy to such communication from God, where others - including the church leaders - are not? The implication is that you are given special direction or instruction that others in the church are not. Why is that? And what, in particular, has the spirit told you not to obey? And what are the implications of those "several things"? Is your salvation somehow different than that which is available to others?

[_sunstoned]

You know, it's sounds like there's a debate on the role of a prophet, but really, there isn't. It is true that the church has taught that low level priesthood holders make the decisions for their stewardship while the prophet can override as needed, and that only the prophet can make decisions for the whole church, or rather "get revelation" for the whole church. The critics -- and I'm one of them -- argue that Mormonism teaches absolute obedience to the prophet and the TBMs, even the apologists, say, "No, we have to get confirmation first!" Well, technically that might be correct, but the idea is that confirmation will always be given unless the TBM is living in sin so it's a redundant step really. The argument though, is moot. And that's because the truth of the matter is that the prophet is never going to get a revelation at this point that matters, that would try anyones faith. So we'll never really know if "Charity" or anyone else desperately needs confirmation by the spirit for a prophetic utterance because he's never going to say anything that matters.

It's really kind of silly reading your post, imagining GBH, the second-rate PR semi-smooth talker at any point in time knowing exactly what BYU or the priests quorum of the 134 Utah Valley ward needs to do. This is the buffoon who many years ago predicted great times ahead on national TV and then a day or two later a couple hundred thousand people were wiped out by a Tsunami. Trust me, the guy has no idea what needs to be done at any level including his own. He's successful in the way most presidents are successful: the forces are already in play and so he's lucky. I'm disposed to the democratic party but trust me, I'm not fooled for a minute that the economic prosperity was anything but an accident under Clinton. Among other things, I'm a monetarist.

But most important, is that the Hinckster is just an old coot of a figurehead and nothing more. If his prophetic ability could make a difference once in a while, he'd use it. And certainly he wouldn't let national TV make a fool out of him like he tends to "let it".

There was a thread not too long ago wondering if there was going to be another group of apostates excommunicated soon Of course there isn't going to be. What, they have AT LEAST a snowball's chance in hell of getting a Mormon president in office. It doesn't matter if they can mind-control him or not, they know they have no revelatory power and they are just a bunch of wannabe losers, but a Mormon in office sure would be great press for the church. You think they are going to risk taking a stand at apostates, and getting the media reason to believe they punish anyone who disagrees with them, and that if Romney doesn't act according to their agenda, that he might be on the choping block too? Of course not! These jokers have been pretty much pushed back into the role of figurehead and don't dare, for at least the two reasons I've cited, try to pull off being "prophets" beyond the mere mention of the term during the sustaining vote at conference times.

You forgot to mention GBH's the power of decernment that was displayed durning the Hoffman affair. That was one of his finest moments.

[_mentalgymnast]

For those of us who can think for themselves, then it's blatently obvious that such facism can be a negative thing, but for those who can't think on their own, prudish old men telling them to follow their advice could be a positive thing in the lives of many of those just dying to be part of a cultish type of culture by being told everything they should do and think.[/color]

I'm getting rather tired of hearing some of the self-proclaimed "thinkers" throw the tired old argument around that a majority of church members are non-thinking automatons that simply want to be told everything to do.

Even when what they're being told what to do is hard.

Seems to me that human nature, being what it is, would dictate that these same sheeplike automatons would tell the church to go stick it.

Oh, that's what you folks have done. <grin>

Members aren't simply grazing out in the field and acting rather cultish, they're working their butts off at being righteous and serving their fellowman. Or at least, trying to do so.

This takes no small IQ.

Regards,
MG

[_truth dancer]

Hi MG...

Happy New Year my friend! :-)

You bring up a very important point, one I do not recognize enough on this MB.

I agree that the majority of LDS folks are trying to be good human beings. For the most part they are doing what they believe God wants, trying to help others, and living the best they can.

in my opinion, many of the more practical teachings of the LDS church are honorable and lovely, for example, the teaching to serve others, care for those in need, etc. etc.

It is the doctrine and dogma that is difficult (OK, impossible... smile), for me to accept, nevertheless, the desire to live a good life should not be minimized.

:-)

~dancer~

[_mentalgymnast]

Hi MG...

Happy New Year my friend! :-)

And to you also!

MG