charity wrote:Supporting your sons as you did, even though you had doubts, is commendable. EVen if the benefits you speak of feel well below your expectations, can you see no benefits at all?
And yet Merc was "chicken" for doing exactly the same thing.
Supporting a son who has made a choice, is different from making an ill advised choice and then saying you were foreed.
Runtu wrote:
I think one of the worst things we can do to ourselves is set up impossible goals. And judge ourselves bya failure to reach what was never reachable in the first place. We are never required to run faster than we have strength, and the Lord looks at what we are trying to do, not what is eventually done. He makes up for what we can't do if we do all we can.
The bitterness of thinking your time was stolen is sad. No one can steal what you freely gave.
I believe law-enforcement officials would disagree with you.
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Runtu wrote:[
I don't regret going on my mission. I didn't go out of peer pressure or family pressure. I was the only one of my parents' four sons to serve a mission. I lived in deplorable conditions, was sick more than a little of the time (and still have health issues from my mission), and more than once put my safety at risk. But I learned a lot about myself. I learned I was much stronger than I had thought I was; I could handle much more than I had ever imagined. I learned that I didn't need material things to be happy. I learned to work hard, to speak in public, and to lead. I don't regret serving at all.
A lot of people on my mission were there for the "wrong" reasons. Many didn't believe or struggled to believe. But I wouldn't call anyone a "chicken" for sticking it out and trying to make it work. I'm sure there's a lot you could say about Merc, but to call him a chicken is just plain, well, nasty.
He wouldn't have gotten the "chicken" label if he hadn't said he was forced!
Trinity wrote:My 18 year old son's good friend was informed by his father six months ago that he would serve a mission or lose his entire family inheritance. I expect that to be somewhere around eight million dollars right now. My son's friend has admitted to me that he is agnostic.
Of course there is overwhelming pressure for these boys to attend, whether they want to or not. Certainly it makes them no chicken for going when they don't want, or are not prepared, to go.
Is my son's friend going to be a good missionary? Well, he likes to abuse prescription drugs, he tells me he functions better when he is on them. He knows all about flaws of Mormonism and doesn't believe a word that comes out of Joseph Smith's mouth.
Will he fake it to get into the mission field? Absolutely. Eight million is a lot of money to an 18 year old boy.
Now let's talk about the culture that compels dad to make a son choose between a mission and the family inheritance.
Well the father is manipulative. 8 million seems a little low as a price for my conscience. Particularly if the father might live another 40-50 years.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
charity wrote:Supporting a son who has made a choice, is different from making an ill advised choice and then saying you were foreed.
What ill-advised choice would that be? We were all told that every young man should serve a mission. Merc felt pressured to go and did so, along the way attempting to make it work. I don't see why you're so critical of him for doing so.
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I believe it's called theft by deception.
He wouldn't have gotten the "chicken" label if he hadn't said he was forced!
A lot of people I have known would say they were "forced" to go on a mission. They had little choice in the matter. They were expected to go, and there were severe consequences from their families and others for not going. I'm glad I wasn't pressured to go, but a lot of people are and were. I would imagine most 19 year olds would qualify as chickens in your book because most would rather go than stand up to the pressure.
This is not one of your finer moments, charity. I know Merc has not been kind to you, but returning the favor doesn't help, does it?
charity wrote:Supporting your sons as you did, even though you had doubts, is commendable. EVen if the benefits you speak of fell well below your expectations, can you see no benefits at all?
I think one of the worst things we can do to ourselves is set up impossible goals. And judge ourselves bya failure to reach what was never reachable in the first place. We are never required to run faster than we have strength, and the Lord looks at what we are trying to do, not what is eventually done. He makes up for what we can't do if we do all we can.
The bitterness of thinking your time was stolen is sad. No one can steal what you freely gave.
The goals were imposed upon me by the mission president which came from the regional rep approved by the 12. You know nothing of the oppressive guilt based nature of a mission. We did crazy things to prove our worthyness to the Mormon God and to His "representatives". All or nothing crazy things. The closest thing to describe our behavior is that of a blow fly trying to find a hole in a closed window. The frenzy we felt to perform has effected me negatively in so many aspects of my life since then.
Evidently, you speak of things of which you have no capacity to understand. Ponder C.
I freely gave. My heart was right. They stole by fraud. I was taken advantage of. They used me.
You are part of the bigger problem. When your kids and grandkids discover what I know, they will reject you and you will be lonely.
I hadn't the capacity to memorize the discussions in the MTC. I was sick most of the time because of strep throat and a form of hypoglycemia brought on by the violent change to a potato based diet. I had decided to quit because of the overwhelm. At the last moment, I made the decision to stay with the help of good intentioned friends.
Even at the young age of 19, I was terrified to go home early. I was aware of the deep shame and embarrassment my family would shoulder if I did. I was the oldest son. Everyone was counting on me. My parents, siblings, girl friends, God, Jesus, my bishop (who pressed upon me that I was the example to help his wayword priests quorem). I didn't even think about the fact that I had sold my car and the money was gone. If I had followed through, I made the determination that I would be home long enough to pack and disapear.
As I look back, it reminds me of every person I've known that has opted out of multilevel marketing.
And I wanted to go on a mission. 18 months wasn't long enough for me. I wished I had 2 years.
Inconceivable wrote: The goals were imposed upon me by the mission president which came from the regional rep approved by the 12. You know nothing of the oppressive guilt based nature of a mission. We did crazy things to prove our worthyness to the Mormon God and to His "representatives". All or nothing crazy things. The closest thing to describe our behavior is that of a blow fly trying to find a hole in a closed window. The frenzy we felt to perform has effected me negatively in so many aspects of my life since then.
Evidently, you speak of things of which you have no capacity to understand. Ponder C.
I freely gave. My heart was right. They stole by fraud. I was taken advantage of. They used me.
You reminded me of the insanity of my mission. The mission president set ridiculous goals (1,000 baptisms a month), monitored our "achievements" down to the number of door approaches given, and berated us for not achieving the goals (though we came damn close). We actually believed him that it was our fault we didn't make these goals. The goals themselves weren't unrealistic; we were just not diligent enough or spiritual enough or masturbated too much to be blessed in this way. The GAs came to yell at us about our inadequacies, and we bought it. They were right. It was all our fault.
Last edited by cacheman on Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
quaker wrote:I am glad that we have all come to recognize the grand luminary thought that social pressure exists only within the Church.
Well, I posted my departure from home and it had nothing to do with the Church. How I would be viewed by my parents caused considerable strain and I made some terrible decisions.
Social pressure for young people (often just from their families) is tremendous. Anyway, I talk to kids that acquiesce to their parents will all the time and regret it. Attempting to push yourself harder so as to not disappoint your parents was fairly status quo among most of my friends when I was a young adult. I imagine when you add on others that will be disappointed in you as well (your Church community) that causes even more intense pressure -- I really can't imagine it.
Runtu wrote: You reminded me of the insanity of my mission. The mission president set ridiculous goals (1,000 baptisms a month), monitored our "achievements" down to the number of door approaches given, and berated us for not achieving the goals (though we came damn close). We actually believed him that it was our fault we didn't make these goals. The goals themselves weren't unrealistic; we were just not diligent enough or spiritual enough or masturbated too much to be blessed in this way. The GAs came to yell at us about our inadequacies, and we bought it. They were right. It was all our fault.
Mercury wrote:I could have gone to school and finished sooner. I could have gone to California with friends and got involved with the internet bubble. Hell, I could have backpacked around Europe with close High School friends. Joined the military, hell...droped out and smoked pot for 2 years. All of these activities would have been more positive than my mission. I was already on my way out. All I did was put myself through an eye gouging manic two years. When I got back and was still trying to be a good RM, dating and eventually succumbing and getting married in the temple , I still kicked myself. But now I kick myself even harder.
can't get the time back. Wish I could, but ow well. Until there is a class action lawsuit I have no hopes for my concerns being addressed. Screw the cult.
No you can't get back those two years, they are gone forever but don't look at them as time wasted. Look at them as two years of learning about yourself. You found your way out of the "cult" which is good. You now see the world through new eyes, eyes that see things clearly now, no more rose colored glasses. You were not weak, you are strong.
The amount of pressure that is put on a young mans shoulders to serve a mission and get married in the temple is over whelming, hopefully you have come away with some happiness.
Mercury,
One can look back with regret as you clearly do. However, you learned something, and you can profit from that.
You can sympathize with those trapped by doctrine, dogma, and pressure to conform. You can be free to think, to explore information about the historical evolution of Christianity and explore information about the evolution of religion itself, should you so choose.
Freedom from religion is enabling. So you might look on a brighter side as you are able.
I don't believe it is a free choice at all. When you start singing "I hope they call me on a mission" at age 3 and grow up hearing your parents saying WHEN he's on his mission and are the recipient of thousands of subtle messages on the subject it's not a free choice. You've been indoctrinated. When you know if you don't go you are going to suffer socially and be less desirable to marry that's not a free choice. That is choosing the lesser of two evils.
Certainly some freely choose. My sisters high school boyfriend joined the church at age 19 and did freely choose to serve a mission when he was 20. His Catholic family disowned him, he still went. Had I gone, that would have been a free choice. I did have the option. Nobody expected me to go. Nobody asked if I was going. My brother, he didn't really have a choice. He told me as much before he went. He's an Eagle Scout by the same token. He's an active member now, by the way.
Insert ironic quote from fellow board member here.