MishMagnet wrote:I don't believe it is a free choice at all. When you start singing "I hope they call me on a mission" at age 3 and grow up hearing your parents saying WHEN he's on his mission and are the recipient of thousands of subtle messages on the subject it's not a free choice. You've been indoctrinated. When you know if you don't go you are going to suffer socially and be less desirable to marry that's not a free choice. That is choosing the lesser of two evils.
This brings up a good point. One of my issues now as a doubter relates to the strings I still feel towards the church. I find it impossible to tell if these are actual spiritual feelings that indicate it still might be true or whether its just the indoctrination since nursey that the church is true. I find it impossible to know just exactly how Mormonism has shaped my brain. So I've sort of decided that any truthfulness about the church has to come from outside of me. It has to come from somewhere else without me looking for it and hit me upside the head. That way I will know that it isn't just my frenzied, indoctrinated for 35 years mind wanting it all to be true so bad that it creates the experience/illusion for me.
“A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take away everything that you have.”
Runtu wrote: You reminded me of the insanity of my mission. The mission president set ridiculous goals (1,000 baptisms a month), monitored our "achievements" down to the number of door approaches given, and berated us for not achieving the goals (though we came damn close). We actually believed him that it was our fault we didn't make these goals. The goals themselves weren't unrealistic; we were just not diligent enough or spiritual enough or masturbated too much to be blessed in this way. The GAs came to yell at us about our inadequacies, and we bought it. They were right. It was all our fault.
That is heartbreaking.
It is heart breaking. Where did they get this Mission President? Shouldn't missions be more about building the character and confidence of these young men, more than approaching strangers and haranguing them with joining the Church. People are much more apt to respond to a joyous message delivered with love, than a packaged special. Take care of the missionaries for they are the future of the Church.
charity wrote:Supporting a son who has made a choice, is different from making an ill advised choice and then saying you were foreed.
What ill-advised choice would that be? We were all told that every young man should serve a mission. Merc felt pressured to go and did so, along the way attempting to make it work. I don't see why you're so critical of him for doing so.
It is the blaming it, that is the problem. He made a choice. Now he says he was forced. That is the chicken.
Runtu wrote:A lot of people I have known would say they were "forced" to go on a mission. They had little choice in the matter. They were expected to go, and there were severe consequences from their families and others for not going. I'm glad I wasn't pressured to go, but a lot of people are and were. I would imagine most 19 year olds would qualify as chickens in your book because most would rather go than stand up to the pressure.
MOST? The young men I know, and I know a lot because our house was the hang out place when our grandson was here, were anxiously awaiting their missions.
Runtu wrote:This is not one of your finer moments, charity. I know Merc has not been kind to you, but returning the favor doesn't help, does it?
Sorry if that offends you. Blaming everyone else for your problems is chicken behavior.
One can look back with regret as you clearly do. However, you learned something, and you can profit from that.
You can sympathize with those trapped by doctrine, dogma, and pressure to conform. You can be free to think, to explore information about the historical evolution of Christianity and explore information about the evolution of religion itself, should you so choose.
Freedom from religion is enabling. So you might look on a brighter side as you are able.
JAK
No doubt you are right, JAK.
My emphasis here is on the fact that this was not the church's intention to teach such lessons. It is prudent to learn from betrayal and tragedy.
I'm sure you agree, just because we derived wisdom from the experience doesn't change even one stripe on the perp.
charity wrote:Supporting a son who has made a choice, is different from making an ill advised choice and then saying you were foreed.
What ill-advised choice would that be? We were all told that every young man should serve a mission. Merc felt pressured to go and did so, along the way attempting to make it work. I don't see why you're so critical of him for doing so.
It is the blaming it, that is the problem. He made a choice. Now he says he was forced. That is the chicken.
Runtu wrote:A lot of people I have known would say they were "forced" to go on a mission. They had little choice in the matter. They were expected to go, and there were severe consequences from their families and others for not going. I'm glad I wasn't pressured to go, but a lot of people are and were. I would imagine most 19 year olds would qualify as chickens in your book because most would rather go than stand up to the pressure.
MOST? The young men I know, and I know a lot because our house was the hang out place when our grandson was here, were anxiously awaiting their missions.
Runtu wrote:This is not one of your finer moments, charity. I know Merc has not been kind to you, but returning the favor doesn't help, does it?
Sorry if that offends you. Blaming everyone else for your problems is chicken behavior.
How many 18/19 year olds do any of us know that can walk away from their parents, their community, and the expectations put upon them? I don't know many. It's not chicken for a child (these young people are NOT adults from a mental perspective!) to do what others expect them to do. It takes a considerable amount of BRAVERY to endure something that you do not desire to do to please the ones about you that you love. A different type of bravery -- the kind that comes from loving others and attempting to meet their expectations. That is NOT wimpy, that is not chicken -- it is a young person trying to sort out who they are, who they are expected to be, and who they desire to be.
charity wrote:Supporting a son who has made a choice, is different from making an ill advised choice and then saying you were foreed.
What ill-advised choice would that be? We were all told that every young man should serve a mission. Merc felt pressured to go and did so, along the way attempting to make it work. I don't see why you're so critical of him for doing so.
It is the blaming it, that is the problem. He made a choice. Now he says he was forced. That is the chicken.
Runtu wrote:A lot of people I have known would say they were "forced" to go on a mission. They had little choice in the matter. They were expected to go, and there were severe consequences from their families and others for not going. I'm glad I wasn't pressured to go, but a lot of people are and were. I would imagine most 19 year olds would qualify as chickens in your book because most would rather go than stand up to the pressure.
MOST? The young men I know, and I know a lot because our house was the hang out place when our grandson was here, were anxiously awaiting their missions.
Runtu wrote:This is not one of your finer moments, charity. I know Merc has not been kind to you, but returning the favor doesn't help, does it?
Sorry if that offends you. Blaming everyone else for your problems is chicken behavior.
But Charity
You see everything through your Rose Colored glasses/Mormon glasses.
I am sure that for every young man you knew there were several thousands you did not know and several thousand that were not anxiously awaiting their missions.
I wonder of all the young men you knew, how many were "actually anxiously awaiting their mission call" or maybe they were more likely to have been sucumbing to all that indoctrination that they had been brainwashed with since they were little boys?
And how many of these young men that knew actually had a "choice" in the matter of serving a mission?
God has left the building and is staying at Motel 8
charity wrote: It is the blaming it, that is the problem. He made a choice. Now he says he was forced. That is the chicken.
Again, that is one of the nastier things you have said. I'm sorry you can't see that.
MOST? The young men I know, and I know a lot because our house was the hang out place when our grandson was here, were anxiously awaiting their missions.
No doubt they said that to you. In my experience, at least half the missionaries in my mission were there for reasons other than wanting to serve the Lord. And anecdotally, most former missionaries that I know have had similar experiences.
Sorry if that offends you. Blaming everyone else for your problems is chicken behavior.
Don't patronize me, charity. You could not care less if you offend me or anyone else. And for the record, Merc was not blaming everyone else for his problems. He simply said he felt enormous pressure to go on a mission and tried his best to make it work.
C#$&%y blathered: MOST? The young men I know, and I know a lot because our house was the hang out place when our grandson was here, were anxiously awaiting their missions.
If your character here matches your true life persona they would have never told you. You are like the bishop they were tempted to lie to. Your love and friendship is conditional. For you, they are either in or out. If they're out, they were never truly in.
Even if you asked them to tell you how they really feel they wouldn't let on. Nobody wants to carry on that kind of conversation with a condescending, narrow minded, judmental dumb old lady.
You would never know. No matter how large you think you may be, you are still not wide enough to obscure your damage path.
Runtu wrote: Don't patronize me, charity. You could not care less if you offend me or anyone else. And for the record, Merc was not blaming everyone else for his problems. He simply said he felt enormous pressure to go on a mission and tried his best to make it work.
We go back a long way. You have no call to make that claim.
And about merc, go back and read his first post. He blamed the Church.
I think the church should apologize for the culture it created. One high council man got up in our ward and said "don't ask your children if they want to go, ask them where they want to go". I looked at a friend of mine and said - isn't that like the devil's plan.
In the late 70's and early 80's when I spent the best two months of my life in Provo and Northern Ohio, the pressure was so bad that I did not really think of not going, that was what the devil wanted - for you to stay home. I remember whispering to a friend if he thought there was a lot of pressure to go. It was the first time I ever talked about it. We were both 18, just about to turn 19 and both had our mission calls.
The one thing that no one talks about is personal boundaries and how they are violated - people outside the church can't understand - It is really up to those people outside the church to explain what boudaries are - what right and wrong are, to the leaders in the Church just like they had to show them that polygamy was wrong.