FAIR: A Prophet Doesn't Speak For God

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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

You continue to assume, just for the sake of keeping this coal on the fire, that any of these issues, to the extent we really understand most of them to any substantive degree, came through revelation. I'm saying that some things do come that way, and some do not. Each individual has he same spirit the Prophets have, and can use it to clarify ambiguities and problems such as this (at the very least, if the Spirit does not clarify the exact nature of the problem, he can reaffirm to one that the Gospel as a system and the Church as an organization are true and of divine origin and organization. This is what happened during my confrontation and wrestle with polygamy. I still don't really understand or comprehend its necessity, especially in mortality, but the Lord told me, in essence, not to worry about it; that he was in control and that that its his Church and that I can't understand everything or have all questions answered as a mortal with such limited comprehension).



Yes, I'm assuming that the prophet of God, prior to addressing members of the church "in the name of Jesus Christ", would pray beforehand to make sure that what he says is representative of God.

That you think I assume this simply "for the sake of keeping the coal on the fire", is bizarre. I was taught that the prophet is God's spokesman on earth, who guides and teaches the church as JC would himself if he were on the earth. I was also taught that the way to access revelation was to pray and seek that revelation, which can occur in various ways, including thoughts that come to one's mind.

So when a prophet of God stands before members and addresses them, functioning in his role as prophet, and speaking "in the name of Jesus Christ", I feel safe assuming they have prayed beforehand for guidance, inspiration, and revelation.

Why is this so unfathomable to you?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

Another question...

Do y'all think prophets believe/think they are receiving inspiration when they pray for it, and speak as prophets in an official capacity?

If so, then it seems clear, based on the fact that they are often wrong, they are unable to discern what is or is not inspiration.

Again, my point... if prophets (and leaders of the church), speaking as the spokesman for Christ upon the earth, given the keys and set apart as the mouthpiece for Jesus cannot tell if they are speaking with inspiration or not, or cannot know if they are not speaking truth, then why do some of your average folks here think they can?

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

truth dancer wrote:Another question...

Do y'all think prophets believe/think they are receiving inspiration when they pray for it, and speak as prophets in an official capacity?

If so, then it seems clear, based on the fact that they are often wrong, they are unable to discern what is or is not inspiration.

Again, my point... if prophets (and leaders of the church), speaking as the spokesman for Christ upon the earth, given the keys and set apart as the mouthpiece for Jesus cannot tell if they are speaking with inspiration or not, or cannot know if they are not speaking truth, then why do some of your average folks here think they can?

~dancer~


Nailed it.
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

First, clarify what you mean by "binding".


A principle is binding when it is a Gospel truth received through the power of revelation, obedience to which now becomes a precondition for our exaltation (within, of course, the general framework of repentance, grace, and Christ's Atonement). Once we have a principle revealed to us through the Holy Ghost, we become accountable before God for our obedience to that principle. Divine truths or counsel received by the President of the Church and disseminated to the general membership, in other words, makes us accountable to God for the degree to which we follow that counsel or obey the principles in question. Food storage, Chastity, WoW, whatever it may be.

Second, clarify why, for example, it would not be important enough for Saints to know the true nature of God.


We do, to the degree it has been revealed, have such a knowledge. You may not accept it, and that's fine, but the official, settled theological concepts haven't changed since Joseph's day. Brigham didn't change or add anything. If he had wanted to, he could have, but he didn't. Again, there is no "Adam/God" theory. Young never taught one. The somewhat incoherent stuff he left us has, in the form we have it and as it has been interpreted, repudiated by the Church. No other Prophet taught it (which is telling, given the cachet it's been granted, but only outside the Church).

Even more telling, get out your copy of Discourses of Brigham Young and look at all his teachings regarding the persons of The Father, Jesus Christ, the Holy Ghost, and Adam. Yup, that's right; its all orthodox LDS doctrine. Nothing different than what Joseph taught or what GBH teaches today. Each person is a separate individual.

So what was he teaching? I don't know.

Official doctrine is settled, open and public, and binding; the Saints are accountable to God for for its observance.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Yes, I'm assuming that the prophet of God, prior to addressing members of the church "in the name of Jesus Christ", would pray beforehand to make sure that what he says is representative of God.

That you think I assume this simply "for the sake of keeping the coal on the fire", is bizarre. I was taught that the prophet is God's spokesman on earth, who guides and teaches the church as JC would himself if he were on the earth. I was also taught that the way to access revelation was to pray and seek that revelation, which can occur in various ways, including thoughts that come to one's mind.

So when a prophet of God stands before members and addresses them, functioning in his role as prophet, and speaking "in the name of Jesus Christ", I feel safe assuming they have prayed beforehand for guidance, inspiration, and revelation.


Around the sugar bowl we go. Engage the points I've made Beastie, and stop rearranging the deck chairs every time I answer one of your questions.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »


Do y'all think prophets believe/think they are receiving inspiration when they pray for it, and speak as prophets in an official capacity?

If so, then it seems clear, based on the fact that they are often wrong, they are unable to discern what is or is not inspiration.


A veritable clinic in logical fallacy construction.

The first sentence implies a missing premise, that would, given TD's conclusion, be something alone the lines of "if prophets receive revelation, then they will always know when and if they are receiving it".

Since, she says, "they are often wrong", it follows that "they are unable to discern what is or is not inspiration". An alternative first premise might be "If prophets receive revelation, prophets will always be right".

Hence we have:

If prophets receive revelation, then prophets will always be right."
Prophet's are often wrong.
Therefore, prophets are unable to discern what is or is not inspiration.

In analyzing TD's argument, what do we see? First of all, the first premise makes a statement that is nothing but a bare assumption. Do we always know when the Spirit is working with us to frame and articulate ideas? What makes TD think so? Have the GA's taught that this is the case?

The real problem, however, lies with the second premise. Now, it is not that TD claims (without examples), that prophets are "often wrong". The problem is an unstated assumption that every word that comes out of a prophet's mouth should be an inspired word, and hence, any time a prophet is wrong, we are justified in questioning his claim to inspiration.

All well and good, until one realizes that neither Joseph Smith nor anyone since him has ever taught that a Prophet, even when discoursing on religious subjects, is by any means continually and constantly inspired. Indeed, Joseph taught precisely the opposite. Indeed, once one realizes (a realization that TD and Beastie are tying with all their heart, might, mind and strength to avoid) that when prophets are wrong, they are wrong because human beings are often wrong and for no other reason, this entire argument shatters like the brittle piece of crystal it is. No one is saying that prophets, as men, cannot be wrong. No, they cannot be wrong when, in acting in the capacity of their calling and office, when they receive the mind and will of the Lord, but here TD makes yet another circular assumption, assuming what she has yet to demonstrate, which is in essence, that they don't receive that mind and will of the Lord in any event.

She however, does not know that they do not, and hence, pointing out where a man who happens to be a prophet can, on occasion, be wrong, is little more than a pedestrian observation of little import from an LDS point of view.

It looms very large indeed, however, in Babylon and its suburbs.

In the end, the argument appears to be an inductive argument masquerading as a deductive one. Its interesting because TD appears to be leaving the possibility open that revelation exists and can be received, but that most, if not all prophets, are incapable of knowing when and if this is happening, which is even more interesting because this implies that, even if revelation does exist, its essentially useless to human beings, since it cannot be discerned with any accuracy.

The inferential leap, that "prophets are unable to discern what is or is not inspiration", is a weak one, for the reason that that leap relies upon a fusion of the calling or office of prophet with the human being who holds that office such that the two become identified. It now becomes possible to claim that every opinion one who holds the calling has on anything from theology, to politics, to educational theory, if it can be shown to be less than credible, is a reflection on his prophetic calling.

The logical weakness of TD's argument now becomes clear. If prophets can also be human beings, then they can be wrong on occasion, and the entire artificial edifice tumbles to the ground.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

Hi Coggins...

I guess I am not explaining myself well.

Let me try again.

Can we assume that prophets do not always get things right? You seem to agree with this point... that prophets are just men and speak their opinion and are infallible like all other men. Are we on the same page here?

If so...

Can we further assume that prophets pray for inspiration when they are speaking as a prophet of God, a representative of Christ upon the earth?

If so...

Then we come to my question.

If prophets pray for inspiration and believe they receive it, and yet get statements/"truths" wrong, why do regular folks (without special keys, without being set apart to receive specific revelation, who do not meet with Christ in the Holy of Holies, etc.), seem to think/believe they are able to get it right?

Is that more clear?


~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Can we assume that prophets do not always get things right? You seem to agree with this point... that prophets are just men and speak their opinion and are infallible like all other men. Are we on the same page here?

If so...

Can we further assume that prophets pray for inspiration when they are speaking as a prophet of God, a representative of Christ upon the earth?

If so...

Then we come to my question.

If prophets pray for inspiration and believe they receive it, and yet get statements/"truths" wrong, why do regular folks (without special keys, without being set apart to receive specific revelation, who do not meet with Christ in the Holy of Holies, etc.), seem to think/believe they are able to get it right?

Is that more clear?



Are you saying that prophets say things they intend to be understood as Gospel truths, and binding upon the membership of the Church that are wrong? What statements do you think they have made that are wrong that they intended to be understood as inspired and "official", and in what since do you mean they are wrong?
Last edited by Dr. Sunstoned on Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Bruce R. McConkie's letter to Eugene England:

http://www.myplanet.net/mike/LDS/McConk ... etter.html

Now may I say something for your guidance and enlightenment. If what I am about to say should be taken out of context and published in Dialogue or elsewhere, it would give an entirely erroneous impression and would not properly present the facts. As it happens, I am a great admirer of Brigham Young and a great believer in his doctrinal presentations. He was called of God.

He was guided by the Holy Spirit in his teachings in general. He was a mighty prophet. He led Israel the way the Lord wanted his people led. He built on the foundation led by the Prophet Joseph. He completed his work and has gone on to eternal exaltation.

Nonetheless, as Joseph Smith so pointedly taught, a prophet is not always a prophet, only when he is acting as such. Prophets are men and they make mistakes. Sometimes they err in doctrine. This is one of the reasons the Lord has given us the Standard Works. They become the standards and the rules that govern where doctrine and philosophy are concerned. If this were not so, we would believe one thing when one man was president of the Church and another thing in the days of his successors. Truth is eternal and does not vary. Sometimes even wise and good men fall short in the accurate presentation of what is truth. Sometimes a prophet gives personal views which are not endorsed and approved by the Lord.

Yes, President Young did teach that Adam was the father of our spirits, and all the related things that the cultists ascribe to him. This, however, is not true. He expressed views that are out of harmony with the gospel. But, be it known, Brigham Young also taught accurately and correctly, the status and position of Adam in the eternal scheme of things. What I am saying is, that Brigham Young contradicted Brigham Young, and the issue becomes one of which Brigham Young we will believe. The answer is we will believe the expressions that accord with the teachings in the Standard Works.

Yes, Brigham Young did say some things about God progressing in knowledge and understanding, but again, be it known, that Brigham Young taught emphatically and plainly, that God knows all things and has all power meaning in the infinite, eternal and ultimate and absolute sense of the word. Again, the issue is, which Brigham Young shall we believe and the answer is: We will take the one whose statements accord with what God has revealed in the Standard Works.

I think you can give me credit for having a knowledge of the quotations from Brigham Young relative to Adam and of knowing what he taught under the subject that has become known as the Adam God Theory. President Joseph Fielding Smith said that Brigham Young will have to make his own explanations on the points there involved. I think you can also give me credit for knowing what Brigham Young said about God progressing. And again, that is something he will have to account for. As for me and my house, we will have the good sense to choose between the divergent teachings of the same man and come up with those that accord with what God has set forth in his eternal plan of salvation.

This puts me in mind of Paul's statement: "There must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you." (1 Cor. 11:19) I do not know all of the providences of the Lord, but I do know that he permits false doctrine to be taught in and out of the Church and that such teaching is part of the sifting process of mortality. We will be judged by what we believe among other things. If we believe false doctrine, we will be condemned. If that belief is on basic and fundamental things, it will lead us astray and we will lose our souls. This is why Nephi said: "And all those who preach false doctrines, . . . wo, wo, wo be unto them, saith the Lord God Almighty, for they shall be thrust down to hell!" (2 Nephi 28:15) This clearly means that people who teach false doctrine in the fundamental and basic things will lose their souls. The nature and kind of being that God is, is one of those fundamentals. I repeat: Brigham Young erred in some of his statements on the nature and kind of being that God is and as to the position of Adam in the plan of salvation, but Brigham Young also taught the truth in these fields on other occasions. And I repeat, that in his instance, he was a great prophet and has gone on to eternal reward. What he did is not a pattern for any of us. If we choose to believe and teach the false portions of his doctrines, we are making an election that will damn us.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Big deal. I already mentioned that Young's concepts had been repudiated by the Church (which is not the same thing as being repudiated by Bruce McConkie, but they have nonetheless).

What does this add to the discussion? That's Elder McConkie's opinion and its as good as any other. I think there may be more to it than that, however. Either way, Young himself taught the orthodox, accepted understating of the relationship between the personages of the Godhead his entire life. The question, it seems to me, is not explaining why or what he was teaching privately to a few friends and associates, but why he continued teaching the orthodox view throughout his life?

The answer may be that he was experimenting with some things he was trying to work out in his own mind and really couldn't make it work and so gave it up.

Oh well. What does this change about the legitimacy of the Church?
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
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