Inconceivable wrote:After judgeing the founders' behavior (not the founders, but their behavior), I concluded that they must necessarily be blind guides. This is why I have left the church.
I reached the same conclusion, but I remain, because I am not convinced that the founders' behaviors or beliefs have any bearing on my eternal salvation. It makes the sifting process (to find the nuggets of truth they buried) more stressful, but I think the church has made progress since those days. I continue to hope it makes more progress, although I am occasionally impatient and cranky about the leaders' lack of inspiration.
charity wrote: We are the ones who determine if we are receiving or not.
Charity has inadvertently provided the explanation that cleared up all the muddy water for me when it comes to this topic. The very moment I figured it was my interpretation, my perception, feelings that were determining God's involvement in any given situation, I figured it was me who was doing the work. There is no evidence God is involved in the process at all except for the evidence I have concocted in my perception. Therefore, God is actually quite moot.
"I think one of the great mysteries of the gospel is that anyone still believes it." Sethbag, MADB, Feb 22 2008
charity wrote: We are the ones who determine if we are receiving or not.
Charity has inadvertently provided the explanation that cleared up all the muddy water for me when it comes to this topic. The very moment I figured it was my interpretation, my perception, feelings that were determining God's involvement in any given situation, I figured it was me who was doing the work. There is no evidence God is involved in the process at all except for the evidence I have concocted in my perception. Therefore, God is actually quite moot.
If you can convince me of this (I don't think you can) then the only logical conclusion is that I have vast insight into the future. I'M GONNA BE RICH!!!!!!!!!
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
Inconceivable wrote:After judgeing the founders' behavior (not the founders, but their behavior), I concluded that they must necessarily be blind guides. This is why I have left the church.
I reached the same conclusion, but I remain, because I am not convinced that the founders' behaviors or beliefs have any bearing on my eternal salvation. It makes the sifting process (to find the nuggets of truth they buried) more stressful, but I think the church has made progress since those days. I continue to hope it makes more progress, although I am occasionally impatient and cranky about the leaders' lack of inspiration.
I have to ask myself. When did their "revelations" occur? Some would suggest that Smith took many mistresses to remain worthy. What were his preocupations? Did he carry the burdens of lies for the last 8 years of his life. Mark Twain said, "you can't pray a lie". In other words, others will see you however they muse, God knows you. He lied to his wife and betrayed her trust in their sacred bond of marriage - continually.
Some say the Book of Abraham is an inspired translation although it took several years to produce a few pages from a funerary text (rather than 90 days for a 521 page keystone).
..On and on.
Very little in his life show a clear and precise motive toward integrity.
Harmony,
What revelations can you allie yourself with if you don't know which were musings/truths?
Last edited by Guest on Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Inconceivable wrote: Did he carry the burdens of lies for the last 8 years of his life.
I think it was closer to 13.
Mark Twain said, "you can't pray a lie". In other words, others will see you however they muse, God knows you. He lied to his wife and betrayed her trust in their sacred bond of marriage - continually.
{snip}
Very little in his life show a clear and precise motive toward integrity.
Moses killed a man. Jonah was a coward. Noah got drunk and slept with his daughters. Elijah sicced bears on children.
It doesn't appear to be necessary that a prophet be a man of integrity. All that is necessary is that the people who follow him think he is a prophet.
Inconceivable wrote: Did he carry the burdens of lies for the last 8 years of his life.
I think it was closer to 13.
Mark Twain said, "you can't pray a lie". In other words, others will see you however they muse, God knows you. He lied to his wife and betrayed her trust in their sacred bond of marriage - continually.
{snip}
Very little in his life show a clear and precise motive toward integrity.
Moses killed a man. Jonah was a coward. Noah got drunk and slept with his daughters. Elijah sicced bears on children.
It doesn't appear to be necessary that a prophet be a man of integrity. All that is necessary is that the people who follow him think he is a prophet.
A few corrections. Moses killed many people, not just one. He was an Egyptian General. Jonah wasn't a coward, he was actually just a militant Jewish patriot. He fled not out of fear for his life but because he was afraid that the Assyrians might repent and be spared divine judgment (judgment he wanted them to receive). Noah got drunk but it was Lot who slept with his daughters while drunk. Elijah sicced bears on young men, not children.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
harmony wrote:Moses killed a man. Jonah was a coward. Noah got drunk and slept with his daughters. Elijah sicced bears on children.
It doesn't appear to be necessary that a prophet be a man of integrity. All that is necessary is that the people who follow him think he is a prophet.
Abraham was turned his mistress and son (his son!) out to die in the wilderness.
Please note, I cannot see how they could possibly have been prophets either.
They do not pass the test that both Nehor and I have used to determine our own personal worthiness to receive further light and knowledge.
I don't have a test. I'm either getting it or I'm not. The word worthiness is overused. God can do whatever he likes.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
The Nehor wrote:I don't have a test. I'm either getting it or I'm not. The word worthiness is overused. God can do whatever he likes.
Call it what you will. You have a very clear understanding of what we are talking about. If God is whimsical (can do whatever he likes), then surely he is a God of confusion.
Your last statement does not fit within the constructs of cause and effect - or in other words, the consistancy and fairness of a loving and well meaning parent.
GIMR wrote:Nehor, how do you know when you're cut off? Because from what I see in TD's post...there are some people who seem to have had that happen (if their judgment of other's behavior can be applied to themselves), and yet they're not aware.
U just more in tune than the rest of us? ;-)
I can feel the Holy Ghost regularly. A simple act of concentration and I can check. Yep, still there. I'm used to it but can tell when it's gone. Now in my darkest moments I want it gone. It does not seem to work this way with most people. But then I sat down with God and I asked him to start and stop on time so I could work out what was what. He obliged courteously so I have a good baseline to work from. Most people don't do that either.
I'm coming to the conclusion that Nehor is spoofing us and has been all along. I mean (God bless you Nehor), this is just a little too bizzare.
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."