Why God is such a chronic "Under-Achiever"?

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_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

guy sajer wrote:Yes, God has this great plan of salvation/exaltation for his children. At the center of it is his true "gospel," the knowledge and acceptance of which is necessary for his children to achieve their eternal reward.

So, what does he do?

For the first tens of thousands or so of years of earth's history, the gospel is nowhere to be found, if it exists, it is limited to a narrow strip of land around 100 miles long and 40 miles wide in an obscure part of the world. (Meanwhile, the people living on this narrow strip of land proceed to piss God off by not being slavishly obedient enough, so in a fit of rage, he kills not only all of them, save a handful, but every other living sole on the planet in a global flood.)

After tens of thousands of years, he finally gets around to sending his son to establish his gospel, and the administrative structure for it on the earth. After 30 some odd years, his son is murdered (part of the plan), but he leaves behind apostles to run the church that he has presumably established.

This church, as it were, operates for a few decades but is reasonably quickly snuffed out of existence in its place of origin. But, luckily, one of its leaders is a good missionary who takes the gospel to foreign lands, one which happens to be Rome--the dominant political and military power in the world.

In the meantime, unfortunately, the entire Church falls into an apostasy after only a few decades of existence. God waited tens of thousands of years to establish his true gospel/church (that which is necessary for salvation/exaltation) only to yank it away after a few short decades in a "great apostasy." This too is part of the wonderful plan.

Meanwhile, the remnant of God's Church in Rome grows in power and strength and is co-opted by a pagan dictator for political purposes that make it the official state church. This launches over 1,000 years of the "dark ages" in which the Church is in open apostasy, is co-opted by corrupt, greedy, murderous thugs, and is made a state instrument of oppression that crushes literally tens of millions of lives in its maw for well over 1,000 years. This too is part of the great plan.

After 1,800 years of apostasy, God finally gets around to restoring his gospel/church on the earth again. He does it through a man of dubious character. This man goes on to establish the church as well as lost eternal doctrines, one of which compels him, at flaming sword point, to seduce and have conjugal relationships with multiple women behind his wife's back, including adolescent girls and women already married to his close confederates. This man finds and translate ancient records of a massive lost civilization for which absolutely no evidence whatsoever exists in a book that coincidentally reflects the theological debates of the day, incorporates themes from contemporary writers, and describes a civilization possessing technologies, planets, animals, languages, religious customs, as to fore, and still, unknown in the pre-Columbian Western Hemisphere.

This man later translates an ancient papyrus which he claims to have been written by a mythological figure named Abraham. Nobody at the time can translate the language in which the ancient texts are written. Sadly, the ancient texts are lost. Happily the ancient texts are found, and more happily still, people have developed the ability to read and translate the language in which the tests are written. When translated by known experts, it is found that they have nothing to do with Abraham but are ordinary funerary texts of known Egyptian funeral rituals.

This man is later killed because he destroyed a printing press that published a paper chronicling his extra-marital sexual escapades. His mantel is assumed by a domineering man who, among his other accomplishments, manages to enshrine as the single most important doctrine for exaltation the requirement that man take on multiple wives. This too is part of God's plan.

This Church grows and grows and grows to reach an enormous size to encompas .01% of the world’s population. Today only around 1 in 1,000 people on the planet even know of this church and its saving gospel, far less care. Of those who belong to this church, around 75% never bother attending, and around 50% of them don’t even consider themselves members of this church. This too is, apparently, part of God’s wonderful plan.

This church today remains totally obscure and irrelevant in the grand scope of human affairs. Its current leaders refrain from speaking out on the great moral debates of the time, save for those that have something to do with human sexuality, jewelry, and personal adornment. And where the leaders do take “moral” stands, they inevitably find themselves behind the moral curve of human society. Nobody, aside from the faithful, listen to or care what they have to say. This too is, apparently, part of God’s plan.

Isn’t it marvelous?


Okay, I'm setting myself up to be called an arrogant git. So be it. Yes, the Church of Christ has been small throughout history.......have you considered maybe God planned it that way? Most people are probably going to the Terrestrial or Telestial anyways. If they really want eternal glory they can always do the whole after death thing.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_guy sajer
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Post by _guy sajer »

charity wrote:
guy sajer wrote:Yes, God has this great plan of salvation/exaltation for his children. At the center of it is his true "gospel," the knowledge and acceptance of which is necessary for his children to achieve their eternal reward.

So, what does he do?

For the first tens of thousands or so of years of earth's history, the gospel is nowhere to be found, if it exists, it is limited to a narrow strip of land around 100 miles long and 40 miles wide in an obscure part of the world. (Meanwhile, the people living on this narrow strip of land proceed to piss God off by not being slavishly obedient enough, so in a fit of rage, he kills not only all of them, save a handful, but every other living sole on the planet in a global flood.)

After tens of thousands of years, he finally gets around to sending his son to establish his gospel, and the administrative structure for it on the earth. After 30 some odd years, his son is murdered (part of the plan), but he leaves behind apostles to run the church that he has presumably established.

This church, as it were, operates for a few decades but is reasonably quickly snuffed out of existence in its place of origin. But, luckily, one of its leaders is a good missionary who takes the gospel to foreign lands, one which happens to be Rome--the dominant political and military power in the world.

In the meantime, unfortunately, the entire Church falls into an apostasy after only a few decades of existence. God waited tens of thousands of years to establish his true gospel/church (that which is necessary for salvation/exaltation) only to yank it away after a few short decades in a "great apostasy." This too is part of the wonderful plan.

Meanwhile, the remnant of God's Church in Rome grows in power and strength and is co-opted by a pagan dictator for political purposes that make it the official state church. This launches over 1,000 years of the "dark ages" in which the Church is in open apostasy, is co-opted by corrupt, greedy, murderous thugs, and is made a state instrument of oppression that crushes literally tens of millions of lives in its maw for well over 1,000 years. This too is part of the great plan.

After 1,800 years of apostasy, God finally gets around to restoring his gospel/church on the earth again. He does it through a man of dubious character. This man goes on to establish the church as well as lost eternal doctrines, one of which compels him, at flaming sword point, to seduce and have conjugal relationships with multiple women behind his wife's back, including adolescent girls and women already married to his close confederates. This man finds and translate ancient records of a massive lost civilization for which absolutely no evidence whatsoever exists in a book that coincidentally reflects the theological debates of the day, incorporates themes from contemporary writers, and describes a civilization possessing technologies, planets, animals, languages, religious customs, as to fore, and still, unknown in the pre-Columbian Western Hemisphere.

This man later translates an ancient papyrus which he claims to have been written by a mythological figure named Abraham. Nobody at the time can translate the language in which the ancient texts are written. Sadly, the ancient texts are lost. Happily the ancient texts are found, and more happily still, people have developed the ability to read and translate the language in which the tests are written. When translated by known experts, it is found that they have nothing to do with Abraham but are ordinary funerary texts of known Egyptian funeral rituals.

This man is later killed because he destroyed a printing press that published a paper chronicling his extra-marital sexual escapades. His mantel is assumed by a domineering man who, among his other accomplishments, manages to enshrine as the single most important doctrine for exaltation the requirement that man take on multiple wives. This too is part of God's plan.

This Church grows and grows and grows to reach an enormous size to encompas .01% of the world’s population. Today only around 1 in 1,000 people on the planet even know of this church and its saving gospel, far less care. Of those who belong to this church, around 75% never bother attending, and around 50% of them don’t even consider themselves members of this church. This too is, apparently, part of God’s wonderful plan.

This church today remains totally obscure and irrelevant in the grand scope of human affairs. Its current leaders refrain from speaking out on the great moral debates of the time, save for those that have something to do with human sexuality, jewelry, and personal adornment. And where the leaders do take “moral” stands, they inevitably find themselves behind the moral curve of human society. Nobody, aside from the faithful, listen to or care what they have to say. This too is, apparently, part of God’s plan.

Isn’t it marvelous?


I wil give you a miniscule example. College educations are not even on the radar for most of the world's population. And for those who do get to go to college, many of them will fail. Very few will excel. So, lets just get rid of college educations altogether. Let's put the money we would spend on colleges and universities to better use. Let's go around building amusement parks. More people will have more fun.


College educations are not THE integral component of God's wonderful plan of salvation. The Gospel (Mormonism) is. Your analogy is absurd.

One part of the analogy works for me, though. I'm all for getting rid of Mormonism all together. I'm reasonaly certain that it will result in people having more fun.
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
_solomarineris
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Re: Why God is such a chronic "Under-Achiever"?

Post by _solomarineris »

charity wrote:
solomarineris wrote:No one has to inform you how scien advances by leaps and bounds, look at the Somebody compiled GBH's interviews, which you can find online; His favored line is "We don't know"
"None of us know what lies ahead?" "I believe He's (God) all powerful, yes. I don't know his will, I don't know how he operates"


Charity
You are so full of it. "Somebody" has it all wrong. Or else you just made that up. And that is a very dishonest thing to do.


Well, Charity I didn't write the best part of His (GBH's) quotes yet; by the way, you can find it all over the internet;

www.i4m.com/think/leaders/Hinckley_dontknow.htm

Let's read some more of His Gems;
"Now I don't wish to be alarmist. I do not wish to be a prophet of doom"
"I believe He's all pwerful, yes. I don't know hoe He operates"
"we know relatively little concerning the celestial kingdom and those who will be there"
Q; Mormons believe God was once a man?
A. GBH; " I wouldn't say that" after the couplet nonsense he says" That get into some pretty deep theology that we don't know very much about"


Do your homework and bring DCP along if you doubt, it is much funner with him.
_Doctor Steuss
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Re: Why God is such a chronic "Under-Achiever"?

Post by _Doctor Steuss »

solomarineris wrote:[...]
"Now I don't wish to be alarmist. I do not wish to be a prophet of doom"
[...]

I’m not sure why this one was on your list. That seems to me to be a wise position to take, and hardly one worthy of derision. Would the converse have been better?

“Now, I wish to be alarmist. I wish to be a prophet of doom.”

As for G-d being an underachiever… perhaps He’s like the father that looks at his stupid kid that’s about to touch a electric object that obviously has substantial warnings, and thinks to himself “Let him touch it, he will learn.” Only problem is, we’re just too dim-witted to learn and instead sit around wondering why G-d isn’t telling us, or interfering, or stepping in on our behalf. We demand He tell the prophet the answer to X or Y instead of doing the damn work ourselves. We can’t put forth the effort to get off our fat asses to find our car keys, and instead pray to him to help us find them.

in my opinion, demanding such is the path of laziness. It’s time we start taking responsibility for ourselves and try to evolve beyond the primates. Maybe it isn’t G-d who is the underachiever, but it is all of the lazy bastards who demand He do things when they are too f*cking lazy to do it themselves.

Now, if anyone needs me, I’m going to be playing Xbox while complaining about the pineapple that came on my pizza.
"Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." ~Charles Bukowski
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Why God is such a chronic "Under-Achiever"?

Post by _Jersey Girl »

solomarineris wrote:No one has to inform you how scien advances by leaps and bounds, look at the computer technology, astronomy; we know can detect asteroids less than 100M diameter fifty million miles away.
What does God do in turn?
Gives us Prophets/Popes like GBH, Ratzinger. At least the latter has intestinal fortitude to speak out against injustice,
stand by his doctrine. Somebody compiled GBH's interviews, which you can find online; His favored line is "We don't know"
"None of us know what lies ahead?" "I believe He's (God) all powerful, yes. I don't know his will, I don't know how he operates"

Excuse me? Who is supposed to know?
Me? As an average member who looks up to you for answers?

I don't expect you to know, dear Prophet, whether a Tsunami or an asteroid will destroy my Village tomorrow.
But have some courage to stand up for;
What you believe, what you know.


Haven't read the replies to this OP. Well, this is a vicious cycle is it not, solo? The Saints look to the Prophet for revelation and leading, the Prophet when put on the spot chooses wiggle words instead of direct statements, the Saints defend said Prophet on the basis of his human-ness and yet they place great faith in the Holy Spirit to confirm their personal witness.

I see no way out of this loop that makes sense to me.
_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

Also, I would like to give myself a chance for a brief rant here, I hope it's not too off topic. I'm really astounded by the comments of (gosh, I think it was charity on the Killer Blow thread) of folks who place conditions on the ability to receive revelation from God. If I am not mistaken, charity said something to the effect that "you have to ask first". What?

I'd like to know when Jonah asked to be sent to Ninevah, when Moses asked to become leader of the Hebrew folks.

Huh???

Also, if "you have to ask first" to receive revelation...we might as well throw Paul out the window.

Rant over. That wasn't so bad, was it?

Jersey Girl
;-)
_guy sajer
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Post by _guy sajer »

Jersey Girl wrote:Also, I would like to give myself a chance for a brief rant here, I hope it's not too off topic. I'm really astounded by the comments of (gosh, I think it was charity on the Killer Blow thread) of folks who place conditions on the ability to receive revelation from God. If I am not mistaken, charity said something to the effect that "you have to ask first". What?

I'd like to know when Jonah asked to be sent to Ninevah, when Moses asked to become leader of the Hebrew folks.

Huh???

Also, if "you have to ask first" to receive revelation...we might as well throw Paul out the window.

Rant over. That wasn't so bad, was it?

Jersey Girl
;-)


You need to place Charity's comment in its appropriate context (and the context with which it is used by others). Believers must need explain away the obvious high failure rate of revelation, prayer, blessings, etc., and one way they do that is by hedging the receipt of it with all sorts of bureaucratic requirements. If a person does not sign the proper forms, as it were, or fill out the forms correctly, then God (being the supreme Bureaucrat that he is) has no choice but to withhold the revelation (or blessing, answer to a prayer, etc.).

Thus, viola. The failure to provide revelation, answer a prayer, heal the sick, etc. can be explained away by the failure of the supplicant to step through the necessary bureaucratic hoops to receive them.

Anomaly explained away.

Isn't it marvelous?
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
_charity
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Re: Why God is such a chronic "Under-Achiever"?

Post by _charity »

solomarineris wrote:
Well, Charity I didn't write the best part of His (GBH's) quotes yet; by the way, you can find it all over the internet

Let's read some more of His Gems;
"Now I don't wish to be alarmist. I do not wish to be a prophet of doom"


So? I don't know what the prophet knows. But I think it is highly possible he knows stuff he isn't supposed to tell us.

solomarineris wrote:
"I believe He's all pwerful, yes. I don't know hoe He operates"


Pretty bad. An indication of the accuracy of the source?)

Why is President Hinckley supposed to know the mechanism. I can drive a car, and I couldn't begin to build a engine. Does that make a difference?? And if you think so, how does it?

solomarineris wrote:"we know relatively little concerning the celestial kingdom and those who will be there"


An accurate statement of fact. And how important is that? To satisfy the curiosity of little minds? We know what we need to know. If you are baptized by the proper authority, keep the commandments and endure to the end, you go to the Celestial Kingdom. You want to know if the streets really are paved with gold?
solomarineris wrote:

Q; Mormons believe God was once a man?
A. GBH; " I wouldn't say that" after the couplet nonsense he says" That get into some pretty deep theology that we don't know very much about"


First, the question was about teaching that doctrine. And you can't find it in the Gospel Doctrine manuals, along with some other stuff we believe but don't teach.

Seoncd, he's right. It is way too deep for the mental abilities of people who watch Larry King on a regular basis.

solomarineris wrote:Do your homework and bring DCP along if you doubt, it is much funner with him.


DCP gets to choose his own sandbox. Evidently, he doesn't think this play group is all that much fun. Get over it.
_solomarineris
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Re: Why God is such a chronic "Under-Achiever"?

Post by _solomarineris »

charity wrote:
solomarineris wrote:
Well, Charity I didn't write the best part of His (GBH's) quotes yet; by the way, you can find it all over the internet

Let's read some more of His Gems;
"Now I don't wish to be alarmist. I do not wish to be a prophet of doom"


So? I don't know what the prophet knows. But I think it is highly possible he knows stuff he isn't supposed to tell us.

solomarineris wrote:
"I believe He's all pwerful, yes. I don't know hoe He operates"


Pretty bad. An indication of the accuracy of the source?)

Why is President Hinckley supposed to know the mechanism. I can drive a car, and I couldn't begin to build a engine. Does that make a difference?? And if you think so, how does it?

solomarineris wrote:"we know relatively little concerning the celestial kingdom and those who will be there"


An accurate statement of fact. And how important is that? To satisfy the curiosity of little minds? We know what we need to know. If you are baptized by the proper authority, keep the commandments and endure to the end, you go to the Celestial Kingdom. You want to know if the streets really are paved with gold?
solomarineris wrote:

Q; Mormons believe God was once a man?
A. GBH; " I wouldn't say that" after the couplet nonsense he says" That get into some pretty deep theology that we don't know very much about"


First, the question was about teaching that doctrine. And you can't find it in the Gospel Doctrine manuals, along with some other stuff we believe but don't teach.

Seoncd, he's right. It is way too deep for the mental abilities of people who watch Larry King on a regular basis.

solomarineris wrote:Do your homework and bring DCP along if you doubt, it is much funner with him.


DCP gets to choose his own sandbox. Evidently, he doesn't think this play group is all that much fun. Get over it.



I do have to admit this is a far better rationalization of why we went to IRAQ to fight a war.
They sound mightily smilar though.
Your end sounds like being used as a "Crutch" and other part was a bout finding "WMD's".
Which one is right?
_charity
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Re: Why God is such a chronic "Under-Achiever"?

Post by _charity »

solomarineris wrote:
I do have to admit this is a far better rationalization of why we went to IRAQ to fight a war.
They sound mightily smilar though.
Your end sounds like being used as a "Crutch" and other part was a bout finding "WMD's".
Which one is right?


I read this through three times and can't figure out what you are talking about. Please clarify so I can respond. Thanks.
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