"The Dark Road to Apostasy"

[_Coggins7]

Mormon faithful cannot seem to accept the fact that some members leave the church simply because they no longer believe it to be true.

I for one, and Wade for another, have supported this again and again. Its just Kimberly, that the vast majority of those people so not end up in forums such as this.

They cannot seem to fathom that some of us were not guilty of unconfessed sin,

Fine.

I can only speak for myself, but I never prayed more fervently or more often in my life than I did while desperately trying to rescue my dying testimony of Mormonism. I never studied my scriptures more diligently! But still, the only answer I got from heaven, if that is indeed from whence the answer came, was that Mormonism was not "true". It just wasn't. The doctrine wasn't correct. Joseph Smith lied. President Hinckley wasn't a prophet. And I couldn't spend even one more day pretending those things were true when they weren't. Those are the answers I got when I prayed and studied my scriptures and read the FARMS material provided by my Bishop.

And this kind of anecdotal story of "coming out' of the Church is the problem, because many of us have received a very different answer than you have, and neither of us can actually enter itno each others internal mental and pshcholgical worlds and see the truth of the search for truth, whether it was really sincere or whether it was tainted with bad faith or ulterior agendas.

I tried hard to believe, but for me, the road to apostasy wasn't dark. It was very well lit. And I was utterly compelled to take it.

So you say.

Perhaps some folks leave the Mormon church because they were offended or lazy or critical of others or prideful, but I didn't. And I'd wager I'm not alone.

Those members who leave Mormonism because they lose their belief in God also do not qualify as sinful, lazy or otherwise fit the narrow-minded qualifications for apostasy outlined by the MAD Mormons.

How do you know who, amongst this class, qualifies as sinful or not?

The Mormon mantra that apostates are lazy, prideful, sinful, rebellious or otherwise faulty is growing tiresome.

So is the oppositional mantra that all of them are honest, deeply reflective and intellectually honest seekers of truth who have only been led out of the Church by a study of the "facts" of Church history and only through a long and arduous process of soul searching of the highest integrity imaginable.

This, of course, is indeed the standard introduction to exmo "coming out" narratives common to EVs and the secularist liberal Signature Books types.

Brigham Young said there was never apostasy without actual commission of sin, and after a lifetime in the Church, observation of others struggling within it, and reflecting upon the few years of my own inactivity, I see no reason to doubt him.

And, Kimberly, given much of what you've said and claimed in this forum over a lengthy period of time, perhaps you protesteth too much.

[_Coggins7]

Is that the full name of Jared "Guns, Germs, and Steel" Diamond? Great book, by the way. It was one of the last books I read as a believer.

Yes, environmental determinism as the primary cause of the development of culture, civilization, and the character of a people, as over against the concept of ideas and their consequences.

I don't buy into it, however, except as a matter of peripheral variables.

[Guest]

LDS leaders are less educated even in their own religion

This is an absolute falsehood.

Quoting Pres Hinckley: I don't know that we teach that (eternal progression).
Either he's telling the truth (and we both know he's not), or he's not telling the truth and he doesn't know his own religion very well.

Harmony, you should know that we know a lot more than we teach. The word TEACH is important here.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
TEACHINGS OF PRESIDENTS OF THE CHURCH
BRIGHAM YOUNG
CHAPTER 4 : Knowing and Honoring the Godhead
Suggestions for Study
"The doctrine that God was once a man and has progressed to become a God is unique to this Church. How do you feel, knowing that God, through His own experience, “knows all that we know regarding the toils [and] sufferings” of mortality?"
Page 34
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OK, here is the word "study" and "doctrine", not the word "teach".

[_ludwigm]

This is only for refreshing the thread list, for Charity.

See my data above about teaching of the "eternal progression" !

[_Runtu]

So is the oppositional mantra that all of them are honest, deeply reflective and intellectually honest seekers of truth who have only been led out of the Church by a study of the "facts" of Church history and only through a long and arduous process of soul searching of the highest integrity imaginable.

There is no such "oppositional mantra," Cogs, except perhaps in your mind. People leave the church for many reasons. Some people "sin," some were "offended," and some, like Kimberly and me and a lot of others, left because we could not stay in good conscience. We had, as you say, been through a long and arduous process of soul-searching. That you cannot even allow for such a possibility says much about you, but nothing about us.

This, of course, is indeed the standard introduction to exmo "coming out" narratives common to EVs and the secularist liberal Signature Books types.

And this of course is a parroting of Juliann's "exmo narratives" meme, which as most of us understand, is nothing more than an attempt to pigenhole people. We're much easier to dismiss if you can put us in a box and label us, aren't we, Cogs?

Brigham Young said there was never apostasy without actual commission of sin, and after a lifetime in the Church, observation of others struggling within it, and reflecting upon the few years of my own inactivity, I see no reason to doubt him.

Well, considering that Brigham Young was undoubtedly wrong in this case, I see no reason to doubt that you are wrong, as well.

And, Kimberly, given much of what you've said and claimed in this forum over a lengthy period of time, perhaps you protesteth too much.

Maybe she protests simply because judgmental jerks like you and Juliann insist on denying her own personal experience, which you cannot know but persist in dismissing.

We get it that you believe and that you have valid reasons for believing. That you cannot afford us the same courtesy says nothing about us.

[_LCD2YOU]

Runtu,


You poor, poor fool. She Charity and Coggins get the "special telepathic messages". You're not. Perhaps if you take off (or is it put on?) your aluminum foil hat (or is it underwear?) you'd get it. Wait, it's the garments isn't it?

So by their logic, the org/God/HG is sending these messages (as Charity says "God is sending his message clearly" or some trite like that) and you're not recieving them, the fault is on YOUR end. That is what they can't understand. Just like my boss who tells us one thing, gets mad when we deal with what he said (ie facts) but still gets mad because the correct thing he wanted us to do was sent via telepathy (ie beliefs).

Silly, silly boy aren't you Runtu?

[_Runtu]

Runtu,


You poor, poor fool. She Charity and Coggins get the "special telepathic messages". You're not. Perhaps if you take off (or is it put on?) your aluminum foil hat (or is it underwear?) you'd get it. Wait, it's the garments isn't it?

So by their logic, the org/God/HG is sending these messages (as Charity says "God is sending his message clearly" or some trite like that) and you're not recieving them, the fault is on YOUR end. That is what they can't understand. Just like my boss who tells us one thing, gets mad when we deal with what he said (ie facts) but still gets mad because the correct thing he wanted us to do was sent via telepathy (ie beliefs).

Silly, silly boy aren't you Runtu?

I must be, or I'd still be a member in good standing. ;)

[_The Nehor]

Many educated LDS become disaffected and it seems that most of the current converts come from less educated stock these days.

I agree with you on this. On my mission in California, there were very few (if any) people that joined the church that were highly educated. We talked to and taught many highly educated people, but the conversion rate was about zero.

It seems that most of those (not all) that are highly educated that are Mormons, are those that were born and raised as active LDS. If Higher Education and Mormonism went hand in hand with each other, you would see a lot more highly educated people join the church than you do now. It is very rare that you see a highly Educated person join the LDS Church or convert to any religion for that matter. I don't know the ratios, but I am sure they are the same as any other man made religion. You would think that God would lead more of those "deep thinkers & truth seekers" to the one and other true church upon the face of the whole earth.

This may also be the reason why you see so many people joining the LDS church in uneducated countries compared to those countries where education is a bigger priority.

You're assuming that the highly educated are more likely to be "deep thinkers & truth seekers". The Book of Mormon at least disagrees with this assessment.

[_LCD2YOU]

You're assuming that the highly educated are more likely to be "deep thinkers & truth seekers". The Book of Mormon at least disagrees with this assessment.

Not just LDS but many religions want people who are not deep thinkers.

When a person can't comprehend the issues, they ask no questions. Blind obedience based on faith is a thing many religions want.

To me, it is the most dangerous knee jerk reactionary way to live I can think of.

If a person has to compartmentilize their brain to seperate "things they know are BS" from "My religion is sacred", they are in denial.

[_Runtu]

Not just LDS but many religions want people who are not deep thinkers.

When a person can't comprehend the issues, they ask no questions. Blind obedience based on faith is a thing many religions want.

To me, it is the most dangerous knee jerk reactionary way to live I can think of.

If a person has to compartmentilize their brain to seperate "things they know are BS" from "My religion is sacred", they are in denial.

As cynical as that sounds, I think I agree with much of it. We talk about "milk before meat," but really no meat is ever discussed in LDS meetings. "Don't stray from the manual," "Don't obsess over the mysteries," they tell us.

I'm not saying I'm a deep thinker because I'm not, really. But I agree that the church doesn't really want people who think through the issues. They want the people who are satisfied with the answers the church gives them.