"The Dark Road to Apostasy"

[_The Nehor]

Not just LDS but many religions want people who are not deep thinkers.

When a person can't comprehend the issues, they ask no questions. Blind obedience based on faith is a thing many religions want.

To me, it is the most dangerous knee jerk reactionary way to live I can think of.

If a person has to compartmentilize their brain to seperate "things they know are BS" from "My religion is sacred", they are in denial.

As cynical as that sounds, I think I agree with much of it. We talk about "milk before meat," but really no meat is ever discussed in LDS meetings. "Don't stray from the manual," "Don't obsess over the mysteries," they tell us.

I'm not saying I'm a deep thinker because I'm not, really. But I agree that the church doesn't really want people who think through the issues. They want the people who are satisfied with the answers the church gives them.

If it's true then it's also ironic as lazy thinkers will never achieve what it's doctrines offer.

[_Runtu]

If it's true then it's also ironic as lazy thinkers will never achieve what it's doctrines offer.

You know, I think people like you kind of scare the church leadership. In all my experience in church leadership, it's the ones who have visions and believe in the esoterica who make the leadership nervous. They are the ones who get put into Primary, where they can't do much damage.

When I was EQ president, there was a guy whom you remind me of who was always asking difficult and esoteric questions. I was counseled to tell him to leave the difficult stuff aside and focus on the essentials. He asked, "If I'm not supposed to discuss these things here, where am I supposed to talk about them?" There really is no place in the church except for personal study. I would bet money that if you approached your church leaders with accounts of angelic visitation and your desire to have a seer stone, they wouldn't exactly welcome that.

[_LCD2YOU]

Not just LDS but many religions want people who are not deep thinkers.

When a person can't comprehend the issues, they ask no questions. Blind obedience based on faith is a thing many religions want.

To me, it is the most dangerous knee jerk reactionary way to live I can think of.

If a person has to compartmentilize their brain to seperate "things they know are BS" from "My religion is sacred", they are in denial.

As cynical as that sounds, I think I agree with much of it. We talk about "milk before meat," but really no meat is ever discussed in LDS meetings. "Don't stray from the manual," "Don't obsess over the mysteries," they tell us.

I'm not saying I'm a deep thinker because I'm not, really. But I agree that the church doesn't really want people who think through the issues. They want the people who are satisfied with the answers the church gives them.

If it's true then it's also ironic as lazy thinkers will never achieve what it's doctrines offer.

The sad thing is many of these esoteric thinkers may be delusional, have medical conditions or be out-n-out liars/fruads/conmen. For those in antiquity, ie those who did not have the data nor information available at our fingertips via the internet, I can see why they, the most intelligent and articulate, would write and lead the religions. They were the ones who tried to make sense of it all through the limited abilities of human senses.

In more modern times, when there's such a person creates a new religion and populates it with spacemen, civilizations that can't be found, etc., I think they are either very imaginative. When they start benefitting from it by having sex with multiple women and gaining a power base, then they are a conman.

[_The Nehor]

If it's true then it's also ironic as lazy thinkers will never achieve what it's doctrines offer.

You know, I think people like you kind of scare the church leadership. In all my experience in church leadership, it's the ones who have visions and believe in the esoterica who make the leadership nervous. They are the ones who get put into Primary, where they can't do much damage.

When I was EQ president, there was a guy whom you remind me of who was always asking difficult and esoteric questions. I was counseled to tell him to leave the difficult stuff aside and focus on the essentials. He asked, "If I'm not supposed to discuss these things here, where am I supposed to talk about them?" There really is no place in the church except for personal study. I would bet money that if you approached your church leaders with accounts of angelic visitation and your desire to have a seer stone, they wouldn't exactly welcome that.

If I scare them that badly, you'd think they would get me out of teaching Gospel Essentials where I am currently teaching four people baptized in the last two months.

I talk about them with some of my friends, my ex-bishop, a Swedish companion from my Mission I keep in touch with, and a tin of baked beans. I don't ask some questions in Church. Mostly because I feel it would confuse others which is not helpful. When I'm with my LDS friends we often discuss our spiritual state and we have relationships where we trust each other enough to offer suggestions and even helpful criticism.

I agree with the counsel you were given. A fixation on the esoteric is not that helpful. It asks nothing of you. Faith, Repentance, and the like do. Especially when they're not taught in a watered-down way. In my adult life though I've been blessed with good teachers. I'm aware of the stereotype that Priesthood Lessons are just reading from the manual. It doesn't happen in my ward. I can't think of the last Priesthood Meeting where I didn't feel the Spirit. Both our Sunday School classes are well-prepared and tears (the happy kind, not the hysterical kind) and 'thank yous' are not rare. The only travelogue testimony I've heard in the last 6 months was given by a visitor from Utah. Our Bishop has the gift of discernment and prophecy and uses them. I get real Priesthood interviews where the interviewer actually cares where I am spiritually and how my relationship with God is going and if they can help. It's not Zion but we're getting there.

[_The Nehor]

The sad thing is many of these esoteric thinkers may be delusional, have medical conditions or be out-n-out liars/fruads/conmen. For those in antiquity, ie those who did not have the data nor information available at our fingertips via the internet, I can see why they, the most intelligent and articulate, would write and lead the religions. They were the ones who tried to make sense of it all through the limited abilities of human senses.

In more modern times, when there's such a person creates a new religion and populates it with spacemen, civilizations that can't be found, etc., I think they are either very imaginative. When they start benefitting from it by having sex with multiple women and gaining a power base, then they are a conman.

You're still trying to make sense of it through the limited abilities of human senses. What has changed?

[_Runtu]

If I scare them that badly, you'd think they would get me out of teaching Gospel Essentials where I am currently teaching four people baptized in the last two months.

I talk about them with some of my friends, my ex-bishop, a Swedish companion from my Mission I keep in touch with, and a tin of baked beans. I don't ask some questions in Church. Mostly because I feel it would confuse others which is not helpful. When I'm with my LDS friends we often discuss our spiritual state and we have relationships where we trust each other enough to offer suggestions and even helpful criticism.

I agree with the counsel you were given. A fixation on the esoteric is not that helpful. It asks nothing of you. Faith, Repentance, and the like do. Especially when they're not taught in a watered-down way. In my adult life though I've been blessed with good teachers. I'm aware of the stereotype that Priesthood Lessons are just reading from the manual. It doesn't happen in my ward. I can't think of the last Priesthood Meeting where I didn't feel the Spirit. Both our Sunday School classes are well-prepared and tears (the happy kind, not the hysterical kind) and 'thank yous' are not rare. The only travelogue testimony I've heard in the last 6 months was given by a visitor from Utah. Our Bishop has the gift of discernment and prophecy and uses them. I get real Priesthood interviews where the interviewer actually cares where I am spiritually and how my relationship with God is going and if they can help. It's not Zion but we're getting there.

I didn't quite mean it that way. Have you shared your angelic visitors with your bishop? With your GE class? I wouldn't imagine it would be well-received. As for your lessons, I did not suggest even once that lessons could not be uplifting or spiritual. Nothing I said even hinted at that. What I did say is that the church counsels its members to stick to the manuals and to accept the answers provided therein.

[_LCD2YOU]

The sad thing is many of these esoteric thinkers may be delusional, have medical conditions or be out-n-out liars/fruads/conmen. For those in antiquity, ie those who did not have the data nor information available at our fingertips via the internet, I can see why they, the most intelligent and articulate, would write and lead the religions. They were the ones who tried to make sense of it all through the limited abilities of human senses.

In more modern times, when there's such a person creates a new religion and populates it with spacemen, civilizations that can't be found, etc., I think they are either very imaginative. When they start benefitting from it by having sex with multiple women and gaining a power base, then they are a conman.

You're still trying to make sense of it through the limited abilities of human senses. What has changed?

A great deal.

You are correct though, my response is incomplete. Instead of just saying "human senses", I should have said, "unaided human senses". I also should have put in something about learning and noting what is in our world, passing that knowledge on, etc.

An intelligent Greek philosopher looking up into the dark sky circa 450BCE sees a fash of light in a place he had never seen a star before. He wonders what it is. He creates a perfectly logical, deep and thoughtful explaination that fits the Bronze Age mindset. I know that's most likely a Nova or SuperNova. We have the means to learn and not assign to it supernatural explainations. The Greek Philosopher on the other hand most likely has explained it away in terms of supernatural or by actions of the gods he knows.

The difference is we understand a great deal more about our world and what has gone before us. We look, poke, prod, test and learn what works and learn more.

[_The Nehor]

If I scare them that badly, you'd think they would get me out of teaching Gospel Essentials where I am currently teaching four people baptized in the last two months.

I talk about them with some of my friends, my ex-bishop, a Swedish companion from my Mission I keep in touch with, and a tin of baked beans. I don't ask some questions in Church. Mostly because I feel it would confuse others which is not helpful. When I'm with my LDS friends we often discuss our spiritual state and we have relationships where we trust each other enough to offer suggestions and even helpful criticism.

I agree with the counsel you were given. A fixation on the esoteric is not that helpful. It asks nothing of you. Faith, Repentance, and the like do. Especially when they're not taught in a watered-down way. In my adult life though I've been blessed with good teachers. I'm aware of the stereotype that Priesthood Lessons are just reading from the manual. It doesn't happen in my ward. I can't think of the last Priesthood Meeting where I didn't feel the Spirit. Both our Sunday School classes are well-prepared and tears (the happy kind, not the hysterical kind) and 'thank yous' are not rare. The only travelogue testimony I've heard in the last 6 months was given by a visitor from Utah. Our Bishop has the gift of discernment and prophecy and uses them. I get real Priesthood interviews where the interviewer actually cares where I am spiritually and how my relationship with God is going and if they can help. It's not Zion but we're getting there.

I didn't quite mean it that way. Have you shared your angelic visitors with your bishop? With your GE class? I wouldn't imagine it would be well-received. As for your lessons, I did not suggest even once that lessons could not be uplifting or spiritual. Nothing I said even hinted at that. What I did say is that the church counsels its members to stick to the manuals and to accept the answers provided therein.

No, I don't share that kind of thing with my GE class either. It wouldn't be helpful. The only reason to share it there would be to try to improve their opinion of me which would be pride. Here I know it makes people think I'm loony so that's not a problem.

Well, I generally don't follow the manuals except as a guide to what the topic is. Since I've been asked to teach what people have questions about I usually don't even follow that. I'm a rebel. ;)

Okay, not really. If the Bishop asks me to change what I do I'll do it. I think the best way to teach is to use the Spirit and the Scriptures. We have manuals because the membership doesn't know the gospel as well as they should. In Zion there will be no manuals, just pure intelligence being communicated. I know people now who would go insane if asked to teach a lesson on Faith with no more direction than that.