List of things that make Mormonism a cult

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_Scottie
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Post by _Scottie »

wenglund wrote:
Scottie wrote:Ray and Wade,

I don't think that any item by itself makes a religion a cult. It is the combination of them that makes a religion a cult.

Again, lets use my example of a new religion, founded by a man that calls himself "The Prophet", who has secret meetings, requires payment to participate in those secret meetings, requires new clothing to be worn in order to participate in the secret meetings, tells the followers that revealing anything about the secret meetings to anyone at any time will bring swift punishment, all the while he is driving a new Lexus and living in a $1 million dollar condo. Oh, plus the fact that the new member must spend several hours a week doing unpaid work to "build up" the new religion.

Would you take this religion on it's face and give it the benefit of the doubt, or would you perhaps try and talk your daughter out of joining because it appears to be a cult?


My concern would be in determining what harm or benefit may be served were my hypothetical daughter to join, rather than on what label to attach to the religion. Nevertheless, none of the things you just mentioned would, in and of themselves, or even collectively as you presented them, provide enough information for me to reasonably determine whether harm or benefit would come to my hypothetical daughter, let alone qualify the investigated religion as a "cult" (as colloqually meant today).

One of the intents behind my previous question is to determine whether you are formulating your own idiosyncratic definition, which arbitrarily and capreciously applies to the Church. In other words, I question whether you are selectively picking unique practices of the Church to create your own usage of the term, rather than determining general characteristics of a "cult" (as it is meant colloquially today) and seeing whether the Church then qualifies.

My other intent is to learn what value you hope to produce in labelling the Church as a "cult"--assuming you are able to craft a list of generalizable characteristics under which the Church qualifies as a "cult".

I am still interested in getting our answer to both.

Like I said, fortunately the LDS church has a very large population. People can see the other side, which is the members doing good works and, for the most part, acting like good Christians. For the most part, they are normal, everyday folks. This helps a lot.


I agree.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


Well Wade, like I said in the OP, DCP's refusal to label his definition of an anti-Mormon as anything other than an anti-Mormon is what prompted this thread. If a label SHOULD be affixed to something, whether that something likes it or not, then it should be affixed, right? If, by DCP's interpretation, someone should be labeled an anti-Mormon, then by damn, that's what they are label. Whether that person likes it or not.

So, I just figured that turn about is fair play here, right? The LDS Church has many cult-like properties. More so than most other mainstream religious movements.

I've heard LDS refer to Scientology as a cult numerous times. Do you think they appreciate that label? If we were to list the properties that make Scientology a cult, do you think a Scientologist could justify every single one of them?

Aside from this, you seem to be trying to pull some kind of final expected result from all of these threads. I'm not expecting to change the world, or even LDS doctrine. I'm a simple poster on a message board that thought this might make an interesting subject to talk about. That's the extent of my interest in this subject, as well as the "No expense spared" thread. I'm not sure why we need justification to discuss these things. I don't know why I have to be a full tithe payer to bring up that I believe tithing funds are misappropriated. We are on message boards, which, if I'm not mistaken, exist solely for discussing things like this as entertainment only. Nobody is going to change anybodies mind, and we're certainly not going to change church policy.
If there's one thing I've learned from this board, it's that consensual sex with multiple partners is okay unless God commands it. - Abman

I find this place to be hostile toward all brands of stupidity. That's why I like it. - Some Schmo
_Scottie
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Post by _Scottie »

bcspace wrote:Is Jesus a charismatic figure? If so, then all Christians fall under the antiMormon created negative defiintion of 'cult'.

On the other hand, all religions meet the rest of definitions of 'cult'.


No they don't.
If there's one thing I've learned from this board, it's that consensual sex with multiple partners is okay unless God commands it. - Abman

I find this place to be hostile toward all brands of stupidity. That's why I like it. - Some Schmo
_Scottie
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Post by _Scottie »

Ok, for those of you arguing against using the term cult, lets turn this around.

Again, lets say your daughter is looking to join a new, small religious movement. Say, 100 followers with a leader.

What kinds of properties would the religion have to have before you might try and talk her out of it? What would make this a "cult" in your eyes?
If there's one thing I've learned from this board, it's that consensual sex with multiple partners is okay unless God commands it. - Abman

I find this place to be hostile toward all brands of stupidity. That's why I like it. - Some Schmo
_Moniker
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Post by _Moniker »

Scottie wrote:Ok, for those of you arguing against using the term cult, lets turn this around.

Again, lets say your daughter is looking to join a new, small religious movement. Say, 100 followers with a leader.

What kinds of properties would the religion have to have before you might try and talk her out of it? What would make this a "cult" in your eyes?



Oh! Good question:

Okay!

1. A horny dude as the leader would be a tip off for me!

2. If there was a requirement for head shaving

3 Limiting of contact with prior friends and family

4. Sleep deprivation of any sort

5. If drugs were supplied I'd be a bit concerned about that

6. White tennis shoes!
_Sethbag
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Post by _Sethbag »

I actually agree that the word cult is problematic. The meaning of the word cult is in the eye of the beholder, really. People with a similar worldview will often find agreement on which religion is a cult and which isn't, but people with different worldviews won't. For example, it's probably pretty easy for most Americans to view the FLDS as a cult. The FLDS would beg to differ. A lot of Americans would likewise find it pretty easy to call the LDS church, and most Mormons would strenuously disagree.

I'm sure not many of us would argue with Heaven's Gate being labeled a cult, or the Branch Davidians.

But really, I don't think that there is a true, hard and fast, concrete definition of the term, and thus its malleability.

As cultic as some LDS practices may seem, especially looking back after having lost faith in the church, I don't think it's an especially useful term to use (about Mormonism) in conversation with Mormons.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_wenglund
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Post by _wenglund »

Scottie wrote: Well Wade, like I said in the OP, DCP's refusal to label his definition of an anti-Mormon as anything other than an anti-Mormon is what prompted this thread. If a label SHOULD be affixed to something, whether that something likes it or not, then it should be affixed, right? If, by DCP's interpretation, someone should be labeled an anti-Mormon, then by damn, that's what they are label. Whether that person likes it or not.


I agree that whether people like a term or not, this is not justification, in and of itself, for rejecting the use of the term.

Rather, rejection should be a matter of the label not "fitting" that which is being labelled, and/or the label not serving any useful purpose in its usage (which is a point that DCP stressed as well).

So, I just figured that turn about is fair play here, right?


I am still open to you demonstrating that the Church fits the term "cult" (as understood colloquially--not to be confused with idiosyncratic qualifiers you and others may propose), and I am also open learning what useful purpose you believe it may may serve. When you finally step up to that plate, then I think we both will be in a better position to determine whether your OP qualifies as "turn about", let alone fair play.

Furthermore, to really qualify as "turn about", wouldn't you have to follow DCP's lead in using the term rarely and judiciously?

The LDS Church has many cult-like properties. More so than most other mainstream religious movements.


Again, what generalizable and authoritative list of qualifications are you using in coming to this conclusion? I ask because you (and others on this thread) appear to me to have fashioned your own idiosyncratic list/definition.

I've heard LDS refer to Scientology as a cult numerous times. Do you think they appreciate that label? If we were to list the properties that make Scientology a cult, do you think a Scientologist could justify every single one of them?


I can only speak for myself...but I have yet to refer to Scientology as a cult. So, you will have to take these questions up with those you believe used the term in that way.

Aside from this, you seem to be trying to pull some kind of final expected result from all of these threads. I'm not expecting to change the world, or even LDS doctrine. I'm a simple poster on a message board that thought this might make an interesting subject to talk about. That's the extent of my interest in this subject, as well as the "No expense spared" thread. I'm not sure why we need justification to discuss these things. I don't know why I have to be a full tithe payer to bring up that I believe tithing funds are misappropriated. We are on message boards, which, if I'm not mistaken, exist solely for discussing things like this as entertainment only. Nobody is going to change anybodies mind, and we're certainly not going to change church policy.


I can accept that. However, I thought you disclosed your purpose in openning this thread when you mentioned "turn about is fair play". Was I wrong?

Anyway, my intent in asking the QUESTION about purpose, was not to dismiss the discussion here for want of accomplishing any grand scheme of things. Instead, I did so in hopes of somewhat preventing the discussion from becoming devoid of value and/or devolve into meaningless and counterproductive chatter. In short, I was attempting to determine whether the intended purpose of the thread warranted involving myself in the discussion and would be a good use of my time.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
_Mister Scratch
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Post by _Mister Scratch »

wenglund wrote:
Scottie wrote: Well Wade, like I said in the OP, DCP's refusal to label his definition of an anti-Mormon as anything other than an anti-Mormon is what prompted this thread. If a label SHOULD be affixed to something, whether that something likes it or not, then it should be affixed, right? If, by DCP's interpretation, someone should be labeled an anti-Mormon, then by damn, that's what they are label. Whether that person likes it or not.


I agree that whether people like a term or not, this is not justification, in and of itself, for rejecting the use of the term.

Rather, rejection should be a matter of the label not "fitting" that which is being labelled, and/or the label not serving any useful purpose in its usage (which is a point that DCP stressed as well).


Fine, Wade. Feel free to look up any scholarly guidebook on cults. Let's see how many parallels there are with Mormonism, and let's see whether or not this information sinks in with you. If we find enough parallels and definitional accuracies, will you therefore concede that "cult" is a fitting label? For my money, I am not really comfortable with the term "cult," but I'm curious if you are willing to put your money where your mouth is. As I recall, in a discussion on whether or not the LDS Church "lies" about what "it claims to be," you insisted on setting aside one definition of the word "lie," stating that we should define the word in as charitable and LDS-positive way as possible. Are you willing to do the same with the word "cult"?

I know you want to keep this positive, and I think we can both agree that accurate definitions are useful and positive things.

So, I just figured that turn about is fair play here, right?


I am still open to you demonstrating that the Church fits the term "cult" (as understood colloquially--not to be confused with idiosyncratic qualifiers you and others may propose), and I am also open learning what useful purpose you believe it may may serve.


It serves the useful purpose of categorization and illumination. It helps with description and understanding.

When you finally step up to that plate, then I think we both will be in a better position to determine whether your OP qualifies as "turn about", let alone fair play.

Furthermore, to really qualify as "turn about", wouldn't you have to follow DCP's lead in using the term rarely and judiciously?


I've said before, and will say again: I don't think it's really very good to label the LDS Church a "cult." But, if you are a-okay with simply relying upon strict definitional accuracy, well, then: let's see it.

Again, what generalizable and authoritative list of qualifications are you using in coming to this conclusion? I ask because you (and others on this thread) appear to me to have fashioned your own idiosyncratic list/definition.


Here is what appears to be a pretty good source:

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfa ... oke_1.html

Here is Kathleen Flake, an LDS scholar, commenting upon the way that modern sociologists of religion (remember Bromley?) define "cult":

Prof. Flake wrote:In its more scholarly usage the term tries to measure socio-cultural distance. The greater the mismatch of the customs between believers and their host culture, the more likely the believers are deemed somewhere on the spectrum between sectarian to cultish.


So, what do you say, Wade? How much difference is there between mainstream U.S. culture and the LDS Church, which has declared itself to be "in the world, but not of it"? According to Professor Flake's definition, you will, at the very least, have to concede that the LDS Church is "sectarian," if not an outright "cult." Otherwise, you'll be faced with the virtually impossible task of explaining how garments, the Book of Mormon, the Book of Abraham, Kolob, secret finances, the priesthood ban, jello salad, and many, many other aspects of LDS doctrine and culture are "one and the same" as the broader U.S. culture.
_Jason Bourne
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Re: List of things that make Mormonism a cult

Post by _Jason Bourne »


1. Secret temple rituals.


Esoteric rites are common to many faiths through out history.
2. Forcing members to pay money to participate in the secret temple rituals.


Yea I do not like that one.


3. Calling the leader "The Prophet"


Guess all Christians meet this one as Jesus was also considered a prophet like unto Moses. And well the Catholics have a pope.



4. Wealthy leaders, while the membership struggles to pay tithes.


Hogwash. Any leaders that are wealthy earned the money before they were leaders and they pay and pair tithes along the way.



5. Undisclosed financials.


Yea this is a bad thing,



6. Excessive time investment highly encourage.


Ok. This makes a it a cult because why? How much time is excessive?


In fact, it is considered a sin to refuse a calling.


It is? Who says?


7. "Magic" underwear that will protect you from harm.


The Church does not teach that. It is a popular myth.

8. Since most of the world doesn't realize there is a difference in the Mormon sects, I'll throw polygamy in here.


Why? How does polygqamy make it a cult?


9. The priesthood ban.


Why? Other faiths have all sort of restrictions? Jews have all sorts, can a women be a rabbi? SBC will not let a woman be a pastor. Oh and they started because of they slave issue.


Even though you say other faiths don't have "cult" like things you are incorrect.
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

LCD2YOU wrote:10. Doesn't play well with others in an age and country where different religions were allowed to mix. Had to go off and find their own lands.


I think like many young religions the LDS Church was more cultic in the first 50-80 years but it really is not any longer.
_wenglund
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Post by _wenglund »

Mister Scratch wrote:Fine, Wade. Feel free to look up any scholarly guidebook on cults. Let's see how many parallels there are with Mormonism, and let's see whether or not this information sinks in with you. If we find enough parallels and definitional accuracies, will you therefore concede that "cult" is a fitting label? For my money, I am not really comfortable with the term "cult," but I'm curious if you are willing to put your money where your mouth is. As I recall, in a discussion on whether or not the LDS Church "lies" about what "it claims to be," you insisted on setting aside one definition of the word "lie," stating that we should define the word in as charitable and LDS-positive way as possible. Are you willing to do the same with the word "cult"?


Unfortunately, you don't appear to understand the key points of my argument. So, let me be a little more clear.

First, I am not arguing against the scholarly usage of the term. I am arguing against its usage and interpretation in the common venacular (like what occurs on message boards such as this). That is why I was very careful, each time I posed my questions, to speak in terms of "colloquial" meaning and usage.

Secondly, I am arguing against its colloquial usage on the grounds that it doesn't serve any useful purpose, and in fact tends to be counterproduct (as some on both sides have agreed on this thread).

Now, if you can find a way to reasonably surmount those two reasonable causes for rejecting the colloquil usage of the term, then I would be pleased to hear it.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
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